LK30 - Regent, city placement training.

It took me a long time to realize it, but overlap is overrated. The game is over by the time hospitals arrive. Two of the overlap squares are mountains.

The key is good expansion in the BC time frame. White dot will be able to generate settlers quickly. Your blue dot by the lake will have 1 shield until jungle is cleared - a very slow process. IMHO - the lowest of low priority - not even luxuries / resources to justify the spot.



I can only offer advice - your call.
 
Jungle takes forever to clear, and we are not even industrious.
I count ZERO natural grasslands - this city will take forever to grow and have many shields.
The first cities should be near the capital with lots of grassland, plains with water available, or bonus food tiles.
Click to expand...


If you don't mind a second opinion, I agree with Robehans.

For a study of city placement, there's more involved in the decisions than just the terrain types. You don't want to pass up prime real estate to stake out the muggiest, most disease ridden sites you can find -- in general. There are times it might be wise to do so, though.

Unless you are planning to go for an early ancient wonder in your capital, you're most likely to be using your capital to train settlers at the fastest pace, at least for a while. You may at some point switch over to military buildup, or your capital may have poor land, but generally it's going to produce a number of settlers.

What, then, are you planning to do with the rest of the cities? Are you going to put city number two onto settlers right away? Or military? A wonder? Or is going to build some workers right away to get some improved tiles going?


If the capital is going to produce settlers, and the second city is going to train some workers, then you want to think long term. If you have a smallish patch of jungle, you want to work around it. If you are on the edge of, or in the midst of, a massive tract of jungle, you simply can't afford to ignore and postpone it.


On this particular map from what I can see so far, to the northeast is a peninsula that is unoccupied. The west is unexplored, and south there is more land. The only fresh water in sight is that lake below the capital. If you expand up the peninsula and there are AI's on this landmass, they will be expanding toward you. You will get less total land than if you push into the jungle immediately, settle the fresh water with your first settler, send the second to the cleared land.

The fresh water is the main key. THAT city can grow past size 6 while still in the ancient age. If the fresh water were over in the grass, and the jungle was thick, then you'd want to ignore the jungle and settle the grass. Fresh water is king of the earliest cities. Food bonuses might lure me away, as you can translate those into rapid production of settlers or workers, but the fresh water sites are the ones with the long term potential. They will be leaps and bounds ahead of dry sites in need of aqueducts.

That THIS fresh water happens to be in the likely direction of your neighbors makes it all the more urgent. It's also a very strong site with some shield tiles: hills, mountains. The fact that it has fresh water means it has at least one tile with two food. You could settle on the suggested blue dot, spend the next forty turns training four workers in a row, and have a force that would clear and improve a jungle tile at the pace of one every eight turns. You could thus have six jungle tiles cleared and have yourself a size 7 powerhouse city IN the jungle, by 50BC, all without a lick of support from the rest of the civ, except for the capital to build a settler and train one escort and send them down there. You settle by 2150BC, and have yourself a mighty size 7 city by 50AD. The key is to train a work party immediately. Immediately. The sooner you get started, the sooner you have the site improving and on its way to being your empire's best city.


Judging the terrain is the start of city-placement wisdom, but it doesn't end there. If the jungle were up on that isolated peninsula and away from the fresh water, I'd recommend ignoring it for a goodly long time. But in this case, it not only represents everything I already mentioned, but is going to be the source point for all irrigations in your core, with that mountain range blocking water access to the north and west. The sooner you get irrigation spread through your cities, the sooner you are in position for government swap to carry on to higher population and a stronger economy, to be keeping up in research, etc.

The only way that settling the jungle first would be unwise would be if your gameplan involved attempting to wage war in the ancient era. In that case, you'd need a shorter term payoff on your early cities: you'd need them for troop building, not worker training and long term visions.


And lest any wonder at the wisdom of my jungle theory, I just got out of a game in which I sent my first settler directly into the jungle at a spot even worse than THIS one: mine didn't even have a lake, it was unable to muster two food off any tile until one jungle tile had been cleared by its self-trained workers. What it did have, though, was fresh water (a river), some resources I needed to control, and great long term potential, and was in the direction of my neighbors. My long term vision and jungle-tackling game plan translated into the fastest finish posted in the tournament game. Click Here to read the spot report. I didn't WANT to head into the jungle first, but sometimes it really can be the right choice. You've got to be able to consider more, to think long term, and to know just how quickly you can make a jungle site productive if you really set your mind to it, to know what to do in a situation like this.

The secret is having enough workers to clear jungle tiles at the pace at which the city can use them. How often do you have your second city build virtually nothing but workers for a thousand years? Not often. But it can be done.

Lee's advice is sound. Most times, it would be :smoke: to settle a jungle site while a cleared area is available. Yet it is learning when to ignore rules of thumb that can elevate your game to the highest levels.


- Sirian
 
Originally posted by Sirian
How often do you have your second city build virtually nothing but workers for a thousand years?
Click to expand...
This would work great in a solo game.
The question is how well could this work in a succession game?

Actually, I have had cities build nothing but workers for ages.
A 1/1 city that was just to snag a luxury block.
After it built a temple to secure the remaining luxuries, it was in worker mode forever.


Actually, must of what you say does make sense Sirian.
I still don't know if I would make it #2 city, but I put it to low in the priority list.
I actually have to add another evualation reason to my list - secure sometype of fresh water.
I failed to consider that in my analysis.

Robehans - your choice of white dot or blue lake dot.
If blue lake dot - build workers for a long time clearing jungle toward white dot.
 
I made a mistake during the city review process and not having a dot map with grid-line on.
I actually loaded the games as of 3000 BC. I now understand your overlap comment.
On the white dot city - I gave bad advice.
Your blue dot location was correct.
Please move the city to the corner as you proposed.



Our scouting patterns need to clear up information along the gray lines to give us better ideas on the next potential city sites.

@robehans - sorry for the screw-up.


@Nick014
Red X will need to be city site #3.
It can eventually get irragation down the black line

@ALL - Red X isn't the only jungle city we will build near the capital.
We are going to have to be building workers at a very heavy pace to get these cities usefull.
 
Let's take a look at the city north of Berlin.


There is nothing we can do with irragating the blue lined squares, so they will have little value to electricity.
Your proposed location has a total of 1 grassland


This still isn't great, but moving it to the hill gets 3 grassland.

Trouble is the city will need a temple built to snag two of them, and needs a worker to clear the forest to the left to get any shields into the city. I don't like to put next to the capital at lower priority, but this site has was less potential then jungle town.
 
I saw them mentioned on another thread.
Here is the post about them.
To me it IS revevant - it made it easier to location resources which helped my play.


Originally posted by Lemming


you can download resources.pcx here.

put it into to your civ3\art\ directory (backup the old file first!)
Click to expand...
 
Mmm...kay I might be unable to post the game before late tonight ( im in gmt +3 ) because of a planning mishap... ummm.... if i'm going over the limits any of you should play my 10 turns... ill be back in next round if i don't play this turn...

Thanks,

Robert
 
I will wait for your turn to complete.
I feel the confusion on cities interfered with your finishing your turn, and the I owe you at least the courtesty to play your 10.
 
One more comment about white dot: I can't tell for sure from the image, but it looks like it's off the coast and so can't build a harbor. Getting a city stuck with sea squares and inability to build a harbor stunts its potential even in the medium term, since a city like that will be better off at least having two-food water tiles to work while waiting for jungle to come clear.
 
The revised white dot location definitely should border ocean. That won't be a problem.
 
Ok, so i just found out that my computer had a CIMB, a Civ Included Mental Breakdown, and i will have to reinstall the game and all the graphics modpacs and all that ****, so im not going to play it anymore today...
I WILL play it tomorrow (10 sept.), but if someone wants to play my 6/7 remaining turns, go ahead... im posting the save with this... Anyways, i will be back next round and i WILL follow this thread intensively...
 



OK here is the short term game plan:

Our first two cities will by red 1 and yellow 2.
Let's see how it works out, and build yellow 2 FIRST.
Yellow 2 will immediately start a worker to begin clearing jungle, clearing the river tiles first (right click with 1 gold verifies on a river).
The next target will be red 1 - red 1 can help with miltary and additional settlers.
This could chance if multiple floodplains found by #3 blue.

Critical:
Send the settler along the yellow arrow to site #2.
The #3 square is a FLOOD PLAIN! I want to start getting a hint if we may have a flood plain city available, a killer city for growth.
Cancel the barracks in favor of a warrior to explore the gray arrow further.
It is very hard to determine where to place cities without map knowledge.

===========================

gunning1
robehans
Nick014 (plays 10 turns)
Kublai-Khan (on deck)
da_greatest

10 turns per player
24 hours for got it, 48 hours total time

You must pause your turn the second a settler is BUILT and propose the city to be built.
At the point I will comment on city choice and the proposed location, and you will finish your turn
 
Ok, now i played the remaining 6 turns of my game... founded the city on spot 2, found the yanks, and disturbed an angry barb tribe... :/ i THINK i played 10 turns, 4 turns before the settler, and 6 turns after, that makes 10, right?

And heres the save...

hmm... 1 too many zeros on that filename... It seems like we are living in the 26300 B.C's
 
gunning1
robehans
Nick014 (plays 10 turns)
Kublai-Khan (on deck)
da_greatest

10 turns per player
24 hours for got it, 48 hours total time
 
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