Moving Forward with Future DCLs, ICLs, & IDSs

[stormtrooper412]

All good points, I agree

oh but I have no clue what's the criterion for IDS, PM me up with some details if it's not a hassle

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Most players do not enjoy Diplo but I like it so perhaps you and I can stay on the leaderboard longer since it is not as popular of a VC!

Well, i think it was my first ever Deity diplo win. Most (all) deity games i played prior to the DCL i went for my safe "tradition tall science turtle" given it's the one that least requires you to actually deal with the AI (someone DoWs you : great your tiny army and uber-cities will take care of their units ; someone has plenty CS allies : i'll just secure 2-3 and prevent them from winning Diplo before i can launch ; someone has tons of culture : i don't care ; plenty of tourism : i have enough happiness to keep my small empire happy despite ideological pressure).
Due to the great start of this German game and the synergy between Hanse and Patronage + Freedom tenet i decided to try something different. I don't regret it

 

[stormtrooper412]

I didn't really find the Hanse all that good, but maybe that was just me

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Well at least the Leaderboards have some player interest compared to other ideas I have tried. It is apparent that I need to make a list of some rules of how you get on the boards and move up or down. I will need a little time to come up with all rules but I will post them asap. For sure I have decided that the First VC for each DCL/ICL/IDS game is only allowed to appear on the boards. Secondly, once a player has posted a VC they will not be allowed to replay to try to shave turns off. I do not want to make a huge list of rules but a few rules to help limit confusion is necessary. If we get enough players participating and have true interest I will expand the boards to the top 15/20/25 as needed.

If I had my way I would not allow a player on the boards if they replayed or reloaded unless a crash but I understand that compromise is essential to get more player support so a player may replay as often as they like but we will only be accepting the first VC per map posted.

As usual this is the Honor system and we will not be enforcing any objections if a player replays after losing or scouting the map or any of the number of things that can be done to get the edge. This is for the time being and could change at any moment if more players demand the rules to be more strict.

Have some Honor when you post and play. Let us know if you abused the AI or cheated in some way. I personally will not look down at any player for using exploits or even replaying the map out to get the VC. As I have said before the Honor System is a two way street and we have to have Honor in what we say and in what we believe. Even if a player doesn't believe the other player we need to give them the benefit of the doubt and not accuse them of any wrong doing. (IMO)

After I figure out all the rules... I will post them up in a timely manner! As always ... any player that wants me to add them to the site and make pages for them I will do it if they email or PM me. After that, it is out of your hands and you do not have to do anything except play your game and post results. The more statistics the better your pages will look.

I only keep repeating this because only 1 player has PMed me and said they wanted a specific stat tracked so I feel I need to keep beating this dead horse!

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Leaderboard Requirements

1. The first VC posted per eligible map will be submitted for the LBs

(We will not be enforcing any exploits that a player can do to achieve or shave turn times off but we ask that a player has some Honor and does not replay the map over and over trying to shave off turns waiting to be able to post up lower turn time results. However , if a player is willing to replay the game over and over and over just to be able to move up on a leaderboard that doesn't really mean anything I have to respect that players ambition!!)


2. Only Maps from the DCL 16 China and up are eligible for the DCL LB

(However, IDS 7 Rome on up will be mixed into the DCL LB as well. kb27787s 3 posted maps on the IDS thread are also eligible for the DCL LB (Salt, Diamond, & Sun maps as Brazil can be found mid way down the page here : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=538962&page=7)


3. These rules/requirements are the same for the ICL LBs and only ICL games from Egypt 13 on up are eligible.


4. LBs will be updated within a timely manner

(We will try to update all players as VCs are posted. However, we may wait until the next map/game is posted to update. In case of vacation or some other RL problem we will post a message that informs all players that the LBs will be updated at a later date.)


5. AWC LBs are in the works

(The Requirements are different in that Defeated Turn times will be listed under any Victory Turn times since this Series is very difficult to achieve Victory! This is an ongoing experiment and could come to a crashing halt at any moment)


6. All players have the right to be on the LBs and we ask that if a player finds a mistake that they contact us asap.

(LBs are the top ten as of now but with more player support we will change the LBs to the top 15/20/25 as needed.)


7. We reserve the right to change, modify, or close all LBs and rules at any moment without notice!

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I just spent about 10-15 minutes reading over the amazing work that Consentient has done on the spreadsheet. I may have missed it all this time but I was looking at the bottom of the page that lists all victories/turn times/players. I enjoyed the page with the different era's and color coded graphs with percentages! Really nice! The only thing I might change is the DCL 20 Spain map should be listed under the Consentient Era but I understand placing it in either. I need to give Consentient full control over my website to see how he could improve it as such!!

I do not want to make a poll because I do not like how people who do not even play the DCL/ICL/IDS games will be able to vote. Of course they might be playing and not posting. My solution is to ask all players to simply vote on this page with a short post. If the majority of players would like me to go back and adjust Leaderboards from DCL # 1 Zulu... I will be able to do this with ease since Consentient has each player/game/VC broken down in Alphabetical Order. I might even do it, without a vote, just because he has made it so easy now since I will not have to sift through all posts. Anyways... let us hear from the community as a whole and simply tell us if you want to keep it from DCL # 16 China on up or change it and go back to DCL # 1 Zulu on up or just scrap the whole project all together and close down the site period?

Consentient has done some outstanding work with the spreadsheet and gives me a much needed boost to get in the game and finish all the DCL's I either lost by 1 turn (Mayan map which is much easier than the spreadsheet shows) or flat out lost (Sweden and India) or like the Inca map where I just did not want to keep clicking next turn, next turn to finish.

Three options for your vote:

1. Continue on as I have been going on with only DCL 16 China on up
2. Go back to DCL 1 Zulu and readjust all DCL Leaderboards
3. You do not care and you do not want the Leaderboards to exist


I vote for # 2

My vote is to go back to the DCL 1 Zulu and adjust all Leaderboards accordingly since I now have all the information posted in a concise format.

 

[kb27787]

Well actually I'm kinda like "I do not really care but the leaderboards can exist if others want it"
So I guess that makes me a 3.

Main reason is the majority of players back in the day have somehow disappeared; and we will continue to see a change of clientele in these boards; so eh... whatever. I see no need to close down the site though.

 

[stormtrooper412]

sure, go 2

 

[consentient]

It's a lot of work, but if you're willing, then I would love it. Especially since very soon I will have the most finishes

 

[stormtrooper412]

yeah about that, I'm surprisingly high on the finisher table, it feels unreal that I've managed that many

 

[IronfighterXXX]

Well, after Spain DCL it really doesn't matter if you choose first or second option for top positions.

However lately I observed more people trying to play competitive as opposed to playing 'just for fun' (as if playing competitive couldn't be fun) and I think partially it's due to your leaderboard and consentient's spreadsheet, so

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Well, after Spain DCL it really doesn't matter if you choose first or second option for top positions.

However lately I observed more people trying to play competitive as opposed to playing 'just for fun' (as if playing competitive couldn't be fun) and I think partially it's due to your leaderboard and consentient's spreadsheet, so

You make a really good point about how one DCL Civ/Map can lock up the top spots for all Leaderboards. If I go back and readjust all LBs from DCL 1 Zulu it will drastically change positions and turn times. Just the Zulu map alone will change the landscape of the Domination Leaderboard. Now, mix in the map with the Mongols and it gets even harder to break into LB positions for Domination.

Thanks for posting your vote and comment because it really is helping me to continue on with the LBs and the site in general. So far I only have 5 votes total and one of those votes was for option 3 which basically suggests that the LBs/site does not have enough interest to exist.

I was seriously thinking about just closing down the site in general since only 4 players voted that they wanted to continue on and that seems like a very scarce amount of interest to continue on with the work. The work isn't very hard actually. The LBs are very easy to adjust since I have them filled out and only have to copy/paste to move players up and down the boards. Player Pages take more time and effort but I have a good foundation on how to adjust them so it doesn't really take up that much time to create them. However, I only have 5 players that requested to participate and I think 2 of those players don't really care one way or the other.

I guess I have some lurkers and it seems most players only want to show the winning games and the positive statistics but I feel that the negative statistics need to be shown as well.

I will give this vote another week to see if I have enough interest. I do have to agree with you that it seems that players are trying to post faster finish times since the update on the spreadsheet and the LBs. Since I already paid for the site until next October/November I should continue on and get some value for my money.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Yeah, there simply isn't enough of us to regularly play DCLs and ICLs.

 

[consentient]

I think if the Leaderboard was increased to Top 100 then it would still show the very best, as well as overcome the problem that the LBs will be dominated by a few maps. But it requires much harder work. I think that really, F.A., since you are the one doing the work, you should just decide what you are willing to do, without anyone trying to influence your decision. I like your democratic approach in principle, and I tried to do this when I was host of the DCL. But the player base is too small and not engaged enough for a functioning democratic process to take place, as stormtrooper pointed out.

I change my vote to NOT include the previous challenges.

But I have one question - what does it mean on my player page...?

5 Victories Completed - 1 Replay . . . . 4 Win - 1 Loss

The replay is counted as a loss?

 

[stormtrooper412]

Personally, I prefer statistics to leaderboards. I mean, I'm not really likely to reach an Acken-level finisher in this lifetime but benchmarking and averages and all that stuff is fun and useful to have around. It would me immensely better naturally if there were, as consentient said, a 100 or so of us finishing each week but that would be a nightmare to compile and analyze all the different write-ups and strats, and it would simply be too much for one person to do.

 

[Primacide]

I just want to let you know that I appreciate the work. There may be many people like me who play the games but don't frequently post results. I don't feel like I can vote in good faith until I post a few more finished games.

Thank you for putting in the time though. The ICL series has really made me improve my game, and seeing how other people work the same map is much more informative than getting general advice.

 

[consentient]

Some people are just more naturally inclined to broadcast what they're thinking and doing, I guess. Some of the DCL finishers are kinda half-lurkers, and that's fine. For me, the DCL is there so that as many people as possible can have fun posting the map, and that as large a proportion of those people share their accounts. If it's destined to sit around the 10% mark then so be it.

 

[Acken]

Sadly I do not really see what is the point of trying to compare different maps/civs finish times (makes me #3 I guess). The spreadsheet does the job for me, I'd be more interested in players statistics (number of game played, fastest CV, SV etc number of each etc). But that is way too much work to do it manually, I could come up with a spreadsheet to do it automatically though.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I think if the Leaderboard was increased to Top 100 then it would still show the very best, as well as overcome the problem that the LBs will be dominated by a few maps. But it requires much harder work. I think that really, F.A., since you are the one doing the work, you should just decide what you are willing to do, without anyone trying to influence your decision. I like your democratic approach in principle, and I tried to do this when I was host of the DCL. But the player base is too small and not engaged enough for a functioning democratic process to take place, as stormtrooper pointed out.

I change my vote to NOT include the previous challenges.

But I have one question - what does it mean on my player page...?



The replay is counted as a loss?

Yes! Since I have been tracking Win/Loss for each game it became apparent that I had to change the structure. The reason is because eventually everyone would just be 100-0 and that did not seem very realistic if you go by recording a win because a player finally finished the map/game and won. I changed the format to show total finishes of all maps played so a victory would count as a finish. For a player to receive credit as a Win they would have to of won the game on the first attempt hopefully without reloads. If a player hides the fact that it is a replay or reload I can not do anything about that. That is how the Honor System works and it is very easy to abuse but these player pages are more for players who decide to play and respect the rules of the Honor System. Now if a player Replayed the game and won on the second attempt I would list it as a finish but not a win. This would be considered a Loss in the W/L column. I think that makes it pretty clear. It also shows that we as players do not always win every single map from the start which is more realistic and will help players play a bit more carefully. For the top players who hardly every lose they will most likely show 100-0 but even Glory_7 admitted defeat on the Sweden DCL, so even top players run into losses at times.

I started this site to help enhance single player games which can become monotonous at times. The DCL is about fun but I enjoy some friendly competition and I like to see things like W/L Records and I enjoy seeing all the statistics like turn times that a player completed a Wonder or Captured a Capital. I have seen some amazing write ups lately showing a lot of stats that I could make more enhanced player pages but these players do not contact me to create pages for them.

The ideas never really caught on. Some players did not like the amateur layout of the site. Some players didn't like the idea of trying to earn things like Rank/Medals/Awards.

The top 100 would be extreme but I could easily make it the top 25 without a hitch. Even if I did go with the top 100 it would be very easy to maintain once I built the Leaderboards.

I am not sure why players do not get on board this idea because they do not have to lift one finger except to play out the games and try to record some simple statistics. I do all the work after that so it really should catch on more but it hasn't. I made a 150/200 dollar investment to experiment to see if this would catch on and it is starting to look like a failed experiment. This is not a problem though since I knew my chances of success were slim.

I think it is apparent that players prefer to play a DCL/ICL/IDS game and share it on the CFC thread and leave it at that. It appears players want to see only the positive statistics and what the spreadsheet provides is above and beyond what most players are looking for.

I will continue on with the site for the time remaining on my purchase but barring more player interest or support I will have to concede to the fact that it is not improving single player game play. I thought the Leaderboards were just starting to catch on and it was kinda fun watching players bump each other around but when you get a strong player like Acken not in favor of the site in general it is time to retreat from the front line of battle to the rear with all the good food, tanks, and artillery !!

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Yes! Since I have been tracking Win/Loss for each game it became apparent that I had to change the structure. The reason is because eventually everyone would just be 100-0 and that did not seem very realistic if you go by recording a win because a player finally finished the map/game and won. I changed the format to show total finishes of all maps played so a victory would count as a finish. For a player to receive credit as a Win they would have to of won the game on the first attempt hopefully without reloads.

Just want to react to this. If you only count a win for first attempt, there is a risk you will discourage players from trying different games than just the style they are best at. If i wanted to get as many wins as possible on the leaderboard, i would just go "Tradition-Tall Science Turtle" each time rather than try culture or domination. It took me several attempts, including a failure on the Spain map (i shouldn't have attacked Liza with my X-Bows ) to finally be able to get a Domination victory on the Inca map.
I don't care much about my statistics but i think that way of keeping them goes against one of the objectives of the DCL : encouraging people to try different strategies and try victories out of their comfort range.

Just my 2