National College First Question

[gareththegeek]

I tried out building the National College before settlers for the first time yesterday and some questions arise

I have read that you can get the NC by turn 40-55 but I find it is not possible to get it that quickly; more like turn 65. I have also read that people rush buy the Library.

If I use the following build order:
Warrior > Worker > Library > NC
Pottery > Writing > Calendar (lets say I have cotton near the capital) > Mining

The worker will pop out with a few turns left on calendar so he makes a farm and then gets the cotton. By the time this is done and I have enough cash to buy a library (by selling the luxury), the library is already well underway in the capital. If I built the worker first I would not have the tech ready for him to get the luxury.

Do people build something else after the worker and before the library to buy the worker some time to get the luxury? Would this be preferable to simply sending that extra cash into a maritime CS?

Even so how is it possible to have the NC by turn 40? Something like:
Scout (7 Turns)
?? Magic ?? +420g
Worker (~15 Turns)
Buy Library
NC (~18 Turns) = 40 Turns?

 

[Deussu]

At least I've learned to sell my Open Borders to AI civs. Normally they seem to offer about 50 gold for it. Repeat this n times and you'll get n*50 gold.

Might help a bit.

 

[swordspider]

I tried out building the National College before settlers for the first time yesterday and some questions arise

I have read that you can get the NC by turn 40-55 but I find it is not possible to get it that quickly; more like turn 65. I have also read that people rush buy the Library.

If I use the following build order:
Warrior > Worker > Library > NC
Pottery > Writing > Calendar (lets say I have cotton near the capital) > Mining

The worker will pop out with a few turns left on calendar so he makes a farm and then gets the cotton. By the time this is done and I have enough cash to buy a library (by selling the luxury), the library is already well underway in the capital. If I built the worker first I would not have the tech ready for him to get the luxury.

Do people build something else after the worker and before the library to buy the worker some time to get the luxury? Would this be preferable to simply sending that extra cash into a maritime CS?

Even so how is it possible to have the NC by turn 40? Something like:
Scout (7 Turns)
?? Magic ?? +420g
Worker (~15 Turns)
Buy Library
NC (~18 Turns) = 40 Turns?

Retort: I don't know who invented the idea that building the National College is somehow the key to success, but it isn't. Instead if you rush for it, it can be the key to complete disaster! By b-lining to the NC (and let's just say you do somehow make it by turn 40-55) do you have any idea what you have given up? First and foremost, if you are playing against a multiplayer, forget it, you're dead. You will never recover oh-science-genius-boy when 6 stupid neanderthal warriors sack your beautiful college and capital! Secondly, if you don't get eliminated, you've got this great awesome college building and ONE city. By turn 55 you *should* have had 3 or 4 cities! Plus, and most important of all, when you do the math those 3-4 cities combined equal WAY MORE science than your little coveted college bonus gives you, plus now you have multiplied your production and gold intake.

Drawback: Sure you still have to build the NC at some point, and as you expand the need for libraries becomes exponential, BUT, if you just secure your territory first, then hold back and let your workers catch up on improvements and the like before your next expansion, you'll have a perfect opportunity to build it.

Moral of the story: Rushing the College is plain stupid. It is extremely expensive to build that early and instead you should be establishing a base civilization. Once you do, then stop expanding and build your libraries and then build the college.

Hint: Libraries are cheap buildings, relatively speaking. I queue up the NC in my capital after city 3 or 4 and STILL expand so long as I have the gold to purchase a library. Sure, it is expensive, but think of the turns you have saved and think of the expansion you have gained.

 

[TheMightyQuinn]

I also find it tricky to get the National College that quickly. Here are some things I've found that might help you to do this (some of them are down to chance):

• Have a mined luxury resource in your starting area. Use the worker to develop it, then sell to AI for 300 gold and buy a library.
• Play as Egypt. The UA reduces the build time for the National College by 20%
• Or play as France and use your culture to get the Aristocracy social policy that reduces build time for the NC by 33%
• Find the El Dorado Natural Wonder that gives you 500 gold. Buy library. (I think that Spain get 500 gold for finding any natural wonder but I haven't bought that CIV)
• Get extra population from goody huts so that your capital works more tiles and has more production.
• Set your population to Focus Production when building the Library or NC.
• On high difficulties, steal a worker from an AI/City State with a scout. Then hope they don't invade you!

I think this issue is also discussed in some other threads...

 

[gareththegeek]

@Deussu:
Good tip about selling open borders, forgot about that, thanks.

@swordspider:
It wasn't really my intention in this post to discuss the merits/drawbacks of this strategy vs others. However I played a game both the NC way and the REX way and found that by turn 100 I had a weaker economy the NC way with 5 cities rather than 7, same military, but more than twice the beaker output. So I can agree with some of what you say but find your argument a little overexagerated.

@TheMightyQuinn:
Thanks for the feedback

* Have a mined luxury resource in your starting area. Use the worker to develop it, then sell to AI for 300 gold and buy a library.

As I explained in my OP, there isn't time to hook up the resource and sell if before constructing the library unless I build sth in between.

* Play as Egypt. The UA reduces the build time for the National College by 20%
* Or play as France and use your culture to get the Aristocracy social policy that reduces build time for the NC by 33%

Fair comment, that would save a bit of time. Maybe go from turn 65 to turn 60.

* Find the El Dorado Natural Wonder that gives you 500 gold. Buy library. (I think that Spain get 500 gold for finding any natural wonder but I haven't bought that CIV)
* Get extra population from goody huts so that your capital works more tiles and has more production.

True, but as you said, replies on luck so I'd rather leave these out.

* Set your population to Focus Production when building the Library or NC.

This would have the draw back that although I have the NC earlier I have a lower capital population, which seems to defeat the object for me. I think it's better to grow the capital as much as possible since it will stop growing and spam settlers soon.

* On high difficulties, steal a worker from an AI/City State with a scout. Then hope they don't invade you!

I suppose this could be used to shave a few turns off by developing land and extra chopping.

I found this was discussed on some other threads but didn't find the answer I was looking for

 

[EscapedGoat]

I tried out building the National College before settlers for the first time yesterday and some questions arise

I have read that you can get the NC by turn 40-55 but I find it is not possible to get it that quickly; more like turn 65. I have also read that people rush buy the Library.

If I use the following build order:
Warrior > Worker > Library > NC
Pottery > Writing > Calendar (lets say I have cotton near the capital) > Mining

The worker will pop out with a few turns left on calendar so he makes a farm and then gets the cotton. By the time this is done and I have enough cash to buy a library (by selling the luxury), the library is already well underway in the capital. If I built the worker first I would not have the tech ready for him to get the luxury.

Do people build something else after the worker and before the library to buy the worker some time to get the luxury? Would this be preferable to simply sending that extra cash into a maritime CS?

Even so how is it possible to have the NC by turn 40? Something like:
Scout (7 Turns)
?? Magic ?? +420g
Worker (~15 Turns)
Buy Library
NC (~18 Turns) = 40 Turns?

After experimenting with NC first when the patch came out, I don't find it to be optimal play, but here is how you would do it absolutely fastest (not necessarily a great idea, but the fastest)

1. Tech pottery + writing: 20 turns (more or less - you gain some beakers by growing your city)

2. Obtain 420 gold while teching to writing. Some possibilities:

-5 gpt from city for 20 turns = 100G
-Meet 2 city states first = 60G
-Sell open borders to 2 AI upon discovering writing = 100G
-Find at least 50G through huts
-Sell 5gpt to an AI for 112 gold

Total: 412G

3. Buy library for 420 gold. Still only at turn 20.
4. Build the NC. With 6 hammers/turn = 20 turns, finishes at turn 40. With 8 hammers/turn = 15 turns, finishes at turn 35. If you have tradition, marble, Egypt or forests to chop you can finish a little bit earlier, as low as 30 if you are lucky with your starting position.

 

[diz2]

After experimenting with NC first when the patch came out, I don't find it to be optimal play, but here is how you would do it absolutely fastest (not necessarily a great idea, but the fastest)

1. Tech pottery + writing: 20 turns (more or less - you gain some beakers by growing your city)

2. Obtain 420 gold while teching to writing. Some possibilities:

-5 gpt from city for 20 turns = 100G
-Meet 2 city states first = 60G
-Sell open borders to 2 AI upon discovering writing = 100G
-Find at least 50G through huts
-Sell 5gpt to an AI for 112 gold

Total: 412G

3. Buy library for 420 gold. Still only at turn 20.
4. Build the NC. With 6 hammers/turn = 20 turns, finishes at turn 40. With 8 hammers/turn = 15 turns, finishes at turn 35. If you have tradition, marble, Egypt or forests to chop you can finish a little bit earlier, as low as 30 if you are lucky with your starting position.

Well, I guess that's a theoretically possible way to do it.

But it seems to me it's very unlikely you could get 5gpt from your city beginng in turn 1, and then get 6+ hammers beginning in turn 20...

And do AI civs have that much gold that early?

 

[Rittmeyer]

to swordspider:

Retort: I don't know who invented the idea that building the National College is somehow the key to success, but it isn't. Instead if you rush for it, it can be the key to complete disaster! By b-lining to the NC (and let's just say you do somehow make it by turn 40-55) do you have any idea what you have given up? First and foremost, if you are playing against a multiplayer, forget it, you're dead. You will never recover oh-science-genius-boy when 6 stupid neanderthal warriors sack your beautiful college and capital! Secondly, if you don't get eliminated, you've got this great awesome college building and ONE city. By turn 55 you *should* have had 3 or 4 cities! Plus, and most important of all, when you do the math those 3-4 cities combined equal WAY MORE science than your little coveted college bonus gives you, plus now you have multiplied your production and gold intake.

Wrong. I dare you to proof that by REXing to 3-4 cities you will immediatly reach more science then you would be getting out of 1 city where you build the NC.

Apart from that, who are you to call stupid a strategy that is supported by some of the most skilled (and helpful) players in these boards? I don't know if it's optimal, I'm not a blind defender of NC first. But stupid? Mind your mouth unless you can proof that you are absolutely the greatest CIV player around here.

On a side note, multiplayer is another game enterily (one I don't play). I'm pretty sure the majority of the advice posted in these boards are aimed at single player.

 

[Monthar]

Retort: ...By turn 55 you *should* have had 3 or 4 cities! Plus, and most important of all, when you do the math those 3-4 cities combined equal WAY MORE science than your little coveted college bonus gives you, plus now you have multiplied your production and gold intake.
...

Apparently, you haven't done the math. Those 3-4 cities, at best only have 2 citizens, that's only 2 beakers per city. So that's only 6-8 beakers.

NC adds 5 to the base, plus 50%. Alone, that's 7.5. Oh, and in the time it takes to build warrior, worker, warrior, buy the library and build the NC and another couple of warriors by turn 55, your capital has grown to at least 6 citizens. So that's the same 6 bpt as your 3 additional cities, plus an additional 3 (1 per 2 citizens) from the library, plus this all get's boosted by the 50% from NC. That's 6 + 3 + 5 to the base for 14, which is already double the average of your 3-4 cities. But wait, there's an additional +50% from NC, so that 14 is now 21, thus we're now triple what the average of 3-4 cities of 2 citizen each can put out.

Frankly, those zerg/warrior rushes in multiplayer you referred to just say the rusher only cares about instant wins, not about having any real strategic thinking. In other words, a simple minded mentality. I have absolutely no respect for folks like that in a multiplayer game. Especially in a game like Civ. If those folks want such instant gratification, they should play FPS game and leave the empire building to the rest of us.

Also, most of us avoid multiplayer in Civ 5, because it's nothing more than a twitch fest. At least in the previous Civs, the multiplayer combat didn't require having the best computer and fastest internet to attack an enemy's unit before it magically jumps to the next tile over.

 

[chgrogers]

I do a modified version of of the NC bee-line depending on the luxury resource in your borders. I tech pottery --> Luxury resources --> writing. I usually avoid masonry since it requires multiple techs. This may slow down building the library but I think it speeds up selling the Luxury and maybe I get lucky with a ruins but things are not dependent on it.

 

[Monthar]

I tried out building the National College before settlers for the first time yesterday and some questions arise

I have read that you can get the NC by turn 40-55 but I find it is not possible to get it that quickly; more like turn 65. I have also read that people rush buy the Library.

If I use the following build order:
Warrior > Worker > Library > NC
Pottery > Writing > Calendar (lets say I have cotton near the capital) > Mining

The worker will pop out with a few turns left on calendar so he makes a farm and then gets the cotton. By the time this is done and I have enough cash to buy a library (by selling the luxury), the library is already well underway in the capital. If I built the worker first I would not have the tech ready for him to get the luxury.

Do people build something else after the worker and before the library to buy the worker some time to get the luxury? Would this be preferable to simply sending that extra cash into a maritime CS?

Even so how is it possible to have the NC by turn 40? Something like:
Scout (7 Turns)
?? Magic ?? +420g
Worker (~15 Turns)
Buy Library
NC (~18 Turns) = 40 Turns?

To buy the library is a combo of selling OB and the money you get from meeting the CSs, and/or selling a fast luxury.

I typically build a scout first to explore a little faster. Then I build the worker.

Make sure your citizens are working some production and gold tiles, instead of just food. The default focus likes to work just food until the city hits about 4 pop, so you'll have to manually move one of them. Just make sure you still have enough excess food to continue growing, even if it's slowly.

Have the worker build farms first, this will grow your city faster, so you have the citizens to work those higher hammer tiles, or at least several of the forests/plains for the 1 food 1 hammer. If those are also river tiles, they're even better.

If you didn't turn off the ancient ruins, you'll likely get at least 1 with +1 pop and another with +30 culture. Take Tradition, that'll grow your capital faster. If you get a 2nd policy before starting NC take Aristocracy for the wonder production bonus.

Only start building the library if you don't have enough cash to buy it outright. If this is the case, use the money to buy the monument so you can get Aristocracy quicker.

In most of my games I've completed the NC between turn 40 and 50 on standard speed.

 

[lilnev]

I do a modified version of of the NC bee-line depending on the luxury resource in your borders. I tech pottery --> Luxury resources --> writing....

One of these days I'm going to test this a bit more sytematically, playing out the same start as NC first or luxuries first, for several different starts. I suspect the results will depend on how many luxuries are available with a single 'detour tech' (Mining, Calendar, Sailing).

 

[Maestro_Innit]

To buy the library is a combo of selling OB and the money you get from meeting the CSs, and/or selling a fast luxury.

But surely there's no such thing as a fast luxury since there isn't a single luxury you can develop on eht tech path to the NC. You have to detour to a lux tech first in which case this still doesn't work. Don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan of rushing the NC, it's just that I always start with a worker and an appropriate lux tech first then beeline the NC. That's the only way I ever get near enough cash.

 

[swordspider]

Apparently, you haven't done the math. Those 3-4 cities, at best only have 2 citizens, that's only 2 beakers per city. So that's only 6-8 beakers.

NC adds 5 to the base, plus 50%. Alone, that's 7.5. Oh, and in the time it takes to build warrior, worker, warrior, buy the library and build the NC and another couple of warriors by turn 55, your capital has grown to at least 6 citizens. So that's the same 6 bpt as your 3 additional cities, plus an additional 3 (1 per 2 citizens) from the library, plus this all get's boosted by the 50% from NC. That's 6 + 3 + 5 to the base for 14, which is already double the average of your 3-4 cities. But wait, there's an additional +50% from NC, so that 14 is now 21, thus we're now triple what the average of 3-4 cities of 2 citizen each can put out.

Frankly, those zerg/warrior rushes in multiplayer you referred to just say the rusher only cares about instant wins, not about having any real strategic thinking. In other words, a simple minded mentality. I have absolutely no respect for folks like that in a multiplayer game. Especially in a game like Civ. If those folks want such instant gratification, they should play FPS game and leave the empire building to the rest of us.

Also, most of us avoid multiplayer in Civ 5, because it's nothing more than a twitch fest. At least in the previous Civs, the multiplayer combat didn't require having the best computer and fastest internet to attack an enemy's unit before it magically jumps to the next tile over.

I have done the math and your city placement must royally suck. By turn 55 my 3 cities are very healthy and I have completed a library in the capital and usually completed a library in 1-2 of the others (keep in mind, I have no idea what settings you are playing on, I am assuming quick, but standard would of course be different). If you would have read my whole post rather than just rage-posting, you would have seen my argument was that you are weakening your civilization *not* simply that you have higher science. Lastly, this is all moot anyway as the original poster said, he's not worried about the outcomes, just what is the fastest path, which has since been answered.

Also, If you don't play multiplayer, you're not playing a real opponent. I don't play with the sir-rush-alots I play with real opponents on my steam friends list. The AI is predictable, stupid, and ALLOWS you to take ridiculous building paths like this whole NC debate and get away with it. They declare war based on a set of pre-defined code that says when some programmer at Firaxis thought the computer should attack. In a multiplayer game where your opponents *think* and know the point of the game is not to run around with workers and settlers and pretty buildings and make peace with city-states, this strategy is not a strategy at all.

 

[Bobafett0610]

I've never gotten NC that early, its kindof hit or miss. What i do though is build warrior>worker>monument>BUY LIBRARY>NC. Having the +3 culture per turn instead of +1 helps grab a few tradition SP early on. I found building the monument helps hold me over as I usually play on larger maps and therfore takes a while to find enough civs to sell open borders. Also keep in mind that even on higher difficulty once you hook up that first lux resource most players don't even have the full 300g to trade for. You have to trade for a combination of some lump sum cash and gold per turn with the first lux resource you trade. At least this is what Ive noticed on diety.

 

[Monthar]

But surely there's no such thing as a fast luxury since there isn't a single luxury you can develop on eht tech path to the NC. You have to detour to a lux tech first in which case this still doesn't work. Don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan of rushing the NC, it's just that I always start with a worker and an appropriate lux tech first then beeline the NC. That's the only way I ever get near enough cash.

Sometimes you manage to get a random tech from ruins that happens to be for the luxuries you have near you. However, this is pure luck. Yes, you would have to detour otherwise. Sometimes I do detour, if it's only 1 extra tech to research and doing so would speed up getting NC completed. Then it's only if I have multiple luxuries that need the same tech.

 

[Kyp Durron]

Just trying this out:

1 city (india)

Research order:
Pottery
Writing
Mining
Bronze Working
Iron Working
Calender +5turns to go.

National College +2turns to go.

It is turn 34.

I've chopped 2 forest, built two mines, and I haven't bought anything.

 

[diz2]

To me it seems a bit crazy to chop down forests to say you got a NC earlier.

It's an artificial goal.

I would rather have NC on turn 48 + 2 forests than NC on turn 40 with no forests. The number of hammers in your capital chopping those 2 forests will cost you over the rest of the game will be staggering.

 

[trueblue]

like most things, its situation.


see if theres a cracking spot for another city, go and create that city first.

c'mon, all you then have to do is build one extra library!

 

[vexing]

there are a lot of ways that might work out. if you have ancient ruins on you should probably start with scout. personally i don't play with ancient ruins on, so that's a guaranteed delay for me.

what difficulty are you playing on? standard speed? i assume just a generic civ that won't have specific benefits that'd speed this up like france?

i suspect something like worker -> monument -> library -> nc, buying maritime when you can might work out optimally. the monument should get you to aristocracy which will cut the nc build time by 1/4th.