New Ideology & Victory Design doc

[pineappledan]

We've been talking since 2021 about adding a new Religious victory and a new ideology to go with it.

This would incorporate the Religious overhaul described here

Religious Overhaul Design Thread

Hello, This is a place to discuss design changes and proposals for a religion rework that I am putting together. This mod will form a prerequisite for @amateurgamer88's Extra Victories mod, adding a Relics mechanic necessary for the religious victory. [/SPOILER] Should be compatible...

forums.civfanatics.com

Spoiler Religious Victory concept :

Religious Victory:
Convert the world, either peacefully or by the sword. Once 2/3 of the world has learned the Truth of your holy mission, you can bring about a heaven on earth.

• Must have founded a Religion, adopted an Ideology, and you must have control of your own Holy City
• 100% of the total world population must follow your religion, minus 3% for each Relic you possess
  • So for instance if you possess 5 relics, you only need to convert 85% of the world to your religion
• Once the population threshold has been met, a 'Sage' unit appears in your Holy City.
• Sages build an improvement that end the game. The improvement takes 10 turns on standard gamespeed to complete, and require at least 5 Relics.
• Relics are a unique strategic resource that you accumulate over the game. You get Relics via several different ways:
  • 1 for every Holy City you control, including your own
  • 1 for each Reformation Wonder (should just be your own wonder)
  • 1 Gained by expending Great Monks
  • Specific Wonders, Policies, Events, and WC Proposals
• In addition to lowering the conversion threshold to win the game, each Relic you possess give +4 Faith per turn and +5% Great Person Rate on Empire

Spoiler New Ideology :

Devotion
Victory Orientation: Religious, Domination, and Diplomatic victories
Core themes: Conservatism, fundamentalism

Spoiler World Wonder :

World Wonder:

Spoiler National Wonder :

National Wonder
Shariah Court

Unlocked at Flight​

Must be Built in your Holy City​

+15%Faith, +15%Culture​

+1 Great Diplomat Points​

1 Civil Servant Specialist​

+1 Paper​

Receive one vote in the World Congress for every 10 Cities following your Religion​

Spoiler Tier 1 Tenets :

State Religion
Cities Following your Religion gain +7 Faith, Gold, Culture, and Golden Age Points. Bonus is Doubled in your Holy City..

Not-For-Profits
+2 to Corporate Offices. Corporate Franchises in Foreign cities exert +50 Religious pressure (standard speed). -2 Distress on Empire

Gospel of Wealth
Great Merchants grant 200 Influence from Diplomatic Actions. City State Influence decays 25% more slowly

Martyrdom
Cities can purchase Cenotaphs with Faith. Faith Purchase costs reduced by 25%.

Spoiler Cenotaph :

3, 3, 3, 1
When you construct a Unit in this City, gain Science, Culture, and Faith equal to 10% of the Unit's Production cost

Just War
10 units do not cost Maintenance. Units gain 10 XP on Kills. Anti-Warmonger Fervour increased by 50%

Power of the Purse
+30 Influence for Diplomatic Mission Actions. Unit Purchase Cooldowns are reduced by 1 turn. Quantity of Resources gifted by City-States increased by 100%. Happiness from gifted Luxuries increased by 50%.

Fifth Column
Gain 200 Spy Points. Gain 33% Combat Strength vs enemy Cities if they contain one of your spies.

Spoiler Tier 2 Tenets :

Divine Wind
Can purchase Air units with Faith. Unlocks the Zero Unique Fighter unit.

Autocracy now gains Littorio Unique Battleship with Mare Nostrum tenet​

Air Superiority gives all fighter units increased damage on Air Sweeps​

Graveyard of Empire
Enemy units lose all movement when entering your borders. All cities gain +10 City Strength and all Gunpowder and Recon units gain +10 Air Defense. -25% War Weariness.
Autocracy's Martial Spirit changed to -20%Empire Size modifier

Company Towns
+100% Production towards Settler units. Settler Units can settle adjacent to foreign land and Start with a free Factory. Towns, Academies and Manufactories claim adjacent tiles when built.
Players can use settlers to culture bomb and steal tiles from other players with this.

Televangelism
Free Broadcast Tower in all Cities. +50% Religious Pressure Strength to cities without your majority Religion.

Fundamentalism
Unlocks the Prayer Process. Missionaries are 50% stronger.

Spoiler Prayer Process :

Invisible Hand
+3 Gold to Pastures, Oil Wells, and Unique Improvements. +2 Trade Routes. Can establish Gold Internal Trade Routes.

Charitable Missions
Missionary spread actions to City-States generate 10Influence with the target City-State, scaling with Era. Each Public Works project provide +15%Great Person Rate in the City.

Spoiler Tier 3 Tenets :

Magisterium
5 and 5 per turn in your Capital for each Delegate you control in the World Congress. Can purchase Votes for the World Congress with Faith.

Millenarianism
Receive a Free Great Prophet and a Golden Age Begins. Great Prophet Spread Religion actions no longer consume charges.

Armageddon
+100% Military Supply from Population. Receive 1 Free ICBM, and can purchase Nuclear weapons with Faith.

 

[Brackenspore]

A great idea that modders tried to implement for many years, but were never really implemented (what was implemented worked very crookedly ). The Sagrada Familia (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=90207737&searchtext=sagrada) could be wonder for such ideology. It just began to be built at the end of the 19th century (the time of the emergence and development of ideologies). We can give the opportunity to complete the Sagrada at least in the game.

 

[hokath]

We were brainstorming 1 wonder for each victory, then picking our favourite. The other two we can incorporate into More Wonders compatibility.

Of the three options for it, Sagrada Familiar best fits as the Religious Victory wonder as Cultural is not one of the options.
The Sacred Mosque fits better perhaps for the Domination version, though it's not a perfect fit I don't see anything better.
Then there is Pdan's abomination of a suggestion: The Salt Lake Temple which he proposed as the Religious Victory option.

One thought could be that instead of this 10 turn Sage improvement part of the win condition, it's a wonder (like Cultural Victory) and we could use Sagrada for that.

 

[jarcast2]

I like the concepts for a religious victory and ideology and I would like to see them implemented in the game (maybe as modmod first).

What makes me turn up my nose is the addition of a GP that basically is a duplicate of GProphet, just tie the the number of relics to holy sites.
I also see the endgame Sage unit as unnecessary, just give a building to construct like it is for the cultural victory.

We were brainstorming 1 wonder for each victory, then picking our favourite. The other two we can incorporate into More Wonders compatibility.

Of the three options for it, Sagrada Familiar best fits as the Religious Victory wonder as Cultural is not one of the options.
The Sacred Mosque fits better perhaps for the Domination version, though it's not a perfect fit I don't see anything better.
Then there is Pdan's abomination of a suggestion: The Salt Lake Temple which he proposed as the Religious Victory option.

One thought could be that instead of this 10 turn Sage improvement part of the win condition, it's a wonder (like Cultural Victory) and we could use Sagrada for that.

For me the third wonder beside Sagrada Familia and Mosque of Mecca should be one related to hinduism, aka the third world religion per number of followers after Christianity and Islam.
A candidate can be the Kashi Vishwanath Temple in Varanasi.

 

[Karlos_BR]

I'm down for a new religious victory mechanic. But not so much for a new ideology based around it. I think it will be easier, and more interesting, to tweak the already existing ideologies to acknowledge these new religious aspects.

 

[Agiwan]

"Great Prophet Spread Religion actions no longer consume charges." I am unsure about it, feel not fun to play against and maybe OP. I prefer bonus charges instead, or maybe the Indian UA ?

But I really like this mod concept !

 

[Amadhe]

I have nothing to contribute except the fact that I would love to see this exist.

 

[msw1]

"Great Prophet Spread Religion actions no longer consume charges." I am unsure about it, feel not fun to play against and maybe OP. I prefer bonus charges instead, or maybe the Indian UA ?

But I really like this mod concept !

It seems strong to me but I wouldn't say OP. After a great prophet spreads its charge it can't move. So you can easily declare war and kill it.

I would very much love to see a religious victory. A whole new ideology, I'm not sure. A new victory condition would need integration into the rest of the policies and ideologies in the game, and I feel like I'd like to see that before thinking about a new ideology.

 

[azum4roll]

AI isn't going to immediately declare war, just like how they don't declare war if there's an unguarded settler nearby. They need to plan war (amass troops, ask for co-op) first. By that time you probably would have spread to all their cities.

 

[msw1]

Well, there would need to be AI changes if a whole new victory condition was added. A reasonable one would be to have zero tolerance for a civ near religious victory converting their cities with a prophet.

 

[azum4roll]

There are also other factors like mutual-friendship or mutual-DP or peace deal or promise that prevents declaring war.

 

[pineappledan]

What makes me turn up my nose is the addition of a GP that basically is a duplicate of GProphet, just tie the the number of relics to holy sites

Holy Sites could lower the required conversion cap for RV directly. Sure. There are a few things that would need to change for that though.

The base yields of the Holy Sites would need to lowered, probably to 6 . No or , since they are tied directly into their own victory
Prophecy's -25% GProphet reduction might need to be removed, though maybe this only tranlsates into 1 extra GP because of how costs scale.

I also liked the monk idea because it gives Fealty a GProphet for its finisher. With the creation of an RV, Fealty becomes the closest thing to a dedicated RV policy tree, like Statecraft/DiploV or Artistry/CultureV.

The GMonk being a duplicate of the GProphet isn't correct, if you look at the proposal in the religion rework thread. Making room for a new Relic system and GP without bloating all the existing yields will be difficult, however. It would have knock-on effects in several places.

I also see the endgame Sage unit as unnecessary, just give a building to construct like it is for the cultural victory.

The CV end game action is a project / wonder
The SV end game action is units you expend
The DiploV end game action is a WC resolution

I liked the symmetry of making RV’s final action be an improvement. The game impact between an improvement vs a wonder is minimal, but I thought it was an interesting touch

For me the third wonder beside Sagrada Familia and Mosque of Mecca should be one related to hinduism, aka the third world religion per number of followers after Christianity and Islam.

I'd like to add Sagrada Familia as a general Atomic wonder (see here in this thread).

The proposed tree is an odd fit for Eastern religions, and the current tenets that make reference to religion are patterned after Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism). The T3 tenets in particular are references to different eschatological concepts.

If a late game Hindu or Buddhist wonder were to appear I think it should be as a general wonder, and not tied directly to this tree.

"Great Prophet Spread Religion actions no longer consume charges." I am unsure about it, feel not fun to play against and maybe OP. I prefer bonus charges instead

This is a T3 ideology tenet. By the time you used the bonus charges it would be the same as having unlimited charges, because the game is almost over.
Also, the spreading game has been ossified for 3+ eras; you need a big bonus to shake off the rust.

The main difference is that not using charges at all means you can spread with this GProphet and then still plant a holy site with it later.

 

[pineappledan]

Then there is Pdan's abomination of a suggestion: The Salt Lake Temple which he proposed as the Religious Victory option

I actually thought it was most fitting as an additional American wonder, like Smithsonian or West Point

 

[pineappledan]

Update
@hokath has been hard at work implementing a version of this idea. here is his design as implemented

Spoiler :

 

[ildivincodino99]

Update
@hokath has been hard at work implementing a version of this idea. here is his design as implemented

Spoiler :

View attachment 690887
View attachment 690886

It's really cool! Hype to see it finished.

 

[Joey Diamond]

I'd like to give my two cents about the naming of the Ideological tenet from the above screenshots. Normally I'm all for calling a spade a spade and it is clear that Devotion ideologue is based on radical Islamism. However, since all three Ideologies in the main game never blatantly spelled it out (Autocracy = Nazism/Fascism Order = Communism etc.) either to avoid the bad connotation or for whatever reason. So I think this one should too, purely for consistency.
My suggestion:
- Improvised Explosive -> Martyrdom. It's the same thing without being too on the nose.
- Terrorism -> The Struggle. This one came from Jihad, which also means to struggle. While Terrorism admittedly fits much better with the effect it gives. I feel The Struggle covers a broader sense as an ideological tenet. After all, who'd call themselves a bad guy, or calling their doctrine something so blatantly evil?
- Insurgency -> Radicalization. Again, radicalization covers more topics. Insurgency is also but a symptom where radicalization is the root cause.

 

[GeneralZIft]

I'm not a huge fan of the relic thing.
You need to do a bunch of specific things to gain relics, then you spend them to build an improvement and THEN you can win but only once you gain a changing amount of the world's population under you religion. Sounds like more convoluted than a straight percentage conversion.
Also why do you need a Religion, ideology, ownership of your holy city, X amounts of relics converted into a slowly constructed improvement, and some percentage of the world map converted for you to win?
It sounds quite convoluted basically.

I would strip it down by removing the Relics. All the events you described that would provide relics should just provide some sort of push towards converting more people, gaining more faith, something like that.
You should just convert 50% of the world map, or 50% of the population of the world, then maybe you gain a Sage who would then construct an improvement and you would win once he finished.
You could gain this Sage once every (X turns based on your faith) as long as you meet the conditions.

I like the new Ideology, but if it's the only choice for Religious victory, then you will probably see only it chosen for Religious victory.
Maybe another Ideology with {Science, Culture, Religious} victory focuses would be really cool? Sort of like a peaceful version

 

[hokath]

My suggestion:
- Improvised Explosive -> Martyrdom. It's the same thing without being too on the nose.
- Terrorism -> The Struggle. This one came from Jihad, which also means to struggle. While Terrorism admittedly fits much better with the effect it gives. I feel The Struggle covers a broader sense as an ideological tenet. After all, who'd call themselves a bad guy, or calling their doctrine something so blatantly evil?
- Insurgency -> Radicalization. Again, radicalization covers more topics. Insurgency is also but a symptom where radicalization is the root cause.

I'm about to make a thread and upload the alpha version, but I'll comment here.

Improvised Explosive. I am thinking more of guerilla war, boobie traps, and not specifically (or even mainly) suicide bombing. So I prefer this more... technical? term to Martyrdom
Terrorism. Yes no one likes this name. I will use your suggestion of Radicalization instead. Get's at the same idea I think.
Insurgency. I will keep this one, again its meant to get some of that guerilla war feeling. I have also changed up these bonuses after discussions with the pineapple.

Maybe another Ideology with {Science, Culture, Religious} victory focuses would be really cool? Sort of like a peaceful version

I like the idea also. If you look at the older threads there is one called "Harmony". Perhaps later down the road!
Edit: Here is the post I was thinking of

AG's Ideology Mod

With the new changes to Espionage, my ideas for Administration of Savagery, Diplomatic Immunity and Panopticism need to be altered. Also, I was thinking that maybe Mujahideen should be a Machine Gun replacement instead of a Light Tank replacement (same tech unlock). Millenarianism needs to be...

forums.civfanatics.com

I would probably do science victory not diplomatic, fits well and doesn't make sense to have 4 ideologies all do diplo. The idea of the time victory (instead of cultural) is really cool I think.
The only issue with it is that unlike the other 4, it doesn't have the same historical grounding.

 

[usadefcon1]

I like the new Ideology, but if it's the only choice for Religious victory, then you will probably see only it chosen for Religious victory.

Or remove one of the suggested victory conditions from Freedom and modify it so that it can also be used towards a Religious victory. Devotion versus Freedom Ideologies butting heads about their different religions sounds about right.

 

[pineappledan]

Freedom is all about separation of church and state.