New NESes, ideas, development, etc

[thomas.berubeg]

Nice idea.

How about these categories:
Summoning, Settlement Enchantment, Unit Enchantment, Direct Damage, and Land Altering?

Summoning is obvious. Settlement Enchantment can up the defenses of your settlements. Unit Enchantments can up the power of your units. Direct Damage means that your Wizard casts a spell directly at an enemy unit. And Land Altering would be that your Wizard casts a spell directly at an enemy location, settlement, or land.

How are these categories? Can I trust players to come up with good spell names on their own? Perhaps I should give a list of examples? They would only be names. Because the effects of the spells will be dictated by how much mana you have and how many spell books you have in a certain school of magic.

I also might make it so you have to research or train your Wizard in order to allow the Wizard to put more mana into a spell.

What about schools of magic? Should I have them or do away with them completely? Do you all generally think such a thing is cliche, and would rather focus on a wide range of spells based on their effects - or would you want your Wizard to be limited to, say, only Death and Chaos spells?

More categories could be added with time. Make sure the rules of magic are properly drawn up and air-tight to keep from abuse. Players should be able to come up with good names on their own in my opinion and experience, though you could always modify the less good names, along the lines of the suggested name.

I think you should have schools of magic, but not be more specific than that, aside for clearly indicating the limits to the power of a spell. Players will come up with spells and effects, and run them by you (and, odds are they're combined mass will be infinitely more creative than you could possibly be in creating spells.)
your role as GM, I think, in terms of magic, should be approving or vetoing spells.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I ran a magic NES back in 2005-06, LINES- World of Magic, that had a somewhat different approach to magic. Of course, it worked at the scale of global empires, so magic, until the very end, didn't seem to be omnipresent.

 

[Vertinari118]

Personally I tend to view magic as an organic thing that can be shaped, within natural laws, in any way the user sees fit. Thus schools would arise from players inventing similar spells and players could choose to specialise their wizard but all wizards, with access to appropriate mana, should be able to use and shape that mana. That's just my opinion and its not really a game breaker either. If your magic system is more formally set out that's fine. It is your world.

@ Thomas: Power can be limited simply by setting out the rules of magic at the start, I'm happy to help with them, setting a price for developing spells and direct mod approval of new spell designs. Schools would be of convenience for organising the front page and stories but have no gameplay ramifications, other than allowing voluntary player-chosen specialisation.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

@ Thomas: Power can be limited simply by setting out the rules of magic at the start, I'm happy to help with them, setting a price for developing spells and direct mod approval of new spell designs. Schools would be of convenience for organising the front page and stories but have no gameplay ramifications, other than allowing voluntary player-chosen specialisation.

Starlife, for a good settup of working magic, take a look at Immaculate's last fall from heaven NES.

 

[Starlife]

Hm, interesting ideas. I like the idea of magic as organic and all-inclusive. I do think if players wish to be part of a certain "school" of magic, they will naturally develop their spell descriptions to include such fluff. But I suppose for game mechanics purposes, we should not have schools - I think it dramatically over-complicates things, and we must be reminded that this is a forum-based game and not a computer game. You are all players and not AI.

So keeping that in mind, here is a brief write-up of some magic concepts I have come up with. Please comment and make suggestions.

Spoiler :

Magic

Magic is used to cast spells. Spells have different effects on your kingdom. There are spells for summoning entire armies, and there are spells for constructing walls of fire around a settlement. There are many types of spells, and as a Wizard, you must research new ones.

There are 5 different classes of magic. Within each class of magic, there are two sub-categories.

Direct spells allow your Wizard to attack or heal units from your Citadel.
+ Heal units.
- Attack units.

Summoning spells allow you to create a creature or a group of creatures which can serve as units for kingdom as long as you can spend the mana to maintain them.
+ Summon defenders.
- Summon attackers.

City spells will help a settlement's defenses for as long as you can pay the mana to maintain the spell.
+ Enchant city.
- Curse city.

Unit spells will increase the defensive or offensive power of units.
+ Enchant unit.
- Curse unit.

Land spells will change the land in some way to render farmland or mines around enemy settlements to be temporarily useless (thus producing less gold) or perhaps change them to become more productive.
+ Enchant land.
- Curse land.

Spells

There is not a definitive list of spells in these rules. Rather, it is the responsibility of the player to create spells. This is not a complicated process.

1. What is the spell's title?
2. What is the spell's class?
3. What is the spell's effect?

Here is an example:

Wall of Fire
City Enchantment
Create a wall of fire around a settlement.

Once you have come up with this spell description, you must officially propose your spell to the GM - me. I will then tell you the following: 1. How much mana this spell will cost, and whether it be a one-time cost or a per-turn maintenance, and 2. The effect this spell will have.

So for Wall of Fire above, it would turn out something like this:

Wall of Fire
City Enchantment
Create a wall of fire around a settlement.
50 mana per turn
Settlement receives +10 to its defenses.

Be careful. If you are too vague or attempting to power-play in how you describe your spell, I might spite you and make the mana requirement ridiculous. Be reasonable in what you want your spell to do. Don't make it too insane. Keep it within the parameters listed above. Also remember that magic is out of control when it is not controlled. This sounds like a mystifying concept, but really it is quite difficult for magic to be specific. So if you tell me, "Hey! Can I make my Wall of Fire give +5 to defenses and only pay 25 mana per turn?" The answer will be NO. It's all or nothing!

Once you no longer wish to maintain that Wall of Fire, you can cancel the spell, and you will no longer have that Wall of Fire.

How often can I research a new spell?

To design a new spell, you must spend a flat one-time fee of 500 mana. The turn you spend the 500 mana to create a new spell, you are only beginning to research it. You will then finish researching the spell by the next turn, and you will be able to use it at that point. Each Wizard will begin with a single spell, which you must propose to me before the game begins.

One thing I didn't put here is mana nodes. I think mana nodes will be worth a random amount when you conquer them. But they can be as low as 10 mana per turn and as high as 100. How does that sound?

 

[Immaculate]

Anyone have ideas for a Nuclear Weapon research chain? This is assuming that in this world that the ultimate goal isn't to make a bomb to end a war, but to explore the possibilities of a new technology.

So far, I have (not in this order, mind you.)

Low Yield Nuclear Weaponry
High Yield Nuclear Weaponry
Pure Fission

...more ideas are going to be greatly appreciated.

Thinking about this; you could go with some progressive minaturiazation... so firstly things like naval vessels, then maybe larger vehicles like tanks then finally down to power armor and super-fictonal stuff like that.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Thinking about this; you could go with some progressive minaturiazation... so firstly things like naval vessels, then maybe larger vehicles like tanks then finally down to power armor and super-fictonal stuff like that.

I proposed something similar. However, it seems like miniaturization would have to become progressively steep in price with only varying levels of miniaturization being barriers to advanced nuclear technology... The logical and final conclusion of which being by the end of the tech tree there's no feasible way to move forward without spending all your money on one tech.

I'd be interested to see if anyone has any proposals regarding other barriers that might compliment miniaturization stopgaps, rather than one steep price curve.

Tech tree proposed in very vague terms
Civilian
Atom-Powered Engine - Atomic Trains - Atomic Cars

Atom-Powered Battery - Atomic Computers - Atomic Radio


Military
Low-Yield Atom Bomb - Mid-Yield Atom Bomb - High-Yield Atom Bomb

(With Rocketry) Low-Yield Nuclear Sub Missile - Mid-Yield Nuclear Sub Missle - High-Yield Nuclear Sub Missile

(With Rocketry) Low-Yield ICBM - Mid-Yield ICBM - High-Yield ICBM

(With Atom-Powered Engine) Basic Small-Scale Seaborne Nuclear Reactor - Intermediary Small-Scale Seaborne Nuclear Reactor - Advanced Small-Scale Seaborne Nuclear Reactor (allowing various degrees of speed/efficiency in nuclear-powered ships)

 

[Shadowbound]

I am here to inform you that hard tech trees are a poor idea. Do not use them.

 

[Adrogans]

^ seconded.

 

[TheLizardKing]

How so? What type of substitution am I supposed to use? Because the way it worked in SMW just plainly didn't work.

 

[Adrogans]

I find fixed tech trees are only useful in the boardgame style (see - DarthNES II).

Otherwise you could keep generic stats or simply have a tech level? Making a hard tech tree just stifles creativity and realism too much for me in a NES.

Heck why can't a government waste money pursuing Alien Space Bats?

 

[Dachs]

Hard tech trees are stupid before World War I-equivalents and probably unnecessary after them.

 

[TheLizardKing]

I agree to the extent that tech trees can stifle creativity. I essentially want to use a loose format, but give stuff names.

For example. A nuclear tech tree that me and LoE have been looking at would be (similar) to this.



Now, that would extend towards advanced Atomics, and the like.

When a player comes to me, and says 'I want to build satellites with missiles on them, that can support humans and an aquarium', I can then reply with "Research up to Intermediate Atomic Engines, and Intermediate Rocketry." Rather then giving a vague guesstimate as to what it may cost as I did in SMW. This is easier for me to remember, and hopefully should give a clearer view of what exactly the cost of building such things would be.

It's also a good way to keep a record of what people have researched, for things they may want to do in the future. I by no means am going to have a really elaborate 'Ohhh, you researched this, so you only get this', type of thing.

The tech trees I'd have would be Atomics and Space, seeing as I'd like the NES to really focus on the discovery of nuclear power, and what could turn into a space race.

Essentially, what I think I'm trying to say is, this is really just going to be tech levels, albeit with names.

 

[Starlife]

Do you all think that having specific "unit types" also stifles creativity? I personally don't think so... but what does everyone else think?

 

[Adrogans]

It depends on how they are done. By making specific unit types you need to try and maintain some balance if they are supposedly similar units. I have felt this has been done well in some and poorly in others. By the same token the more board game a NES is supposed to be the more appropriate this is.

 

[LDiCesare]

Regarding unit types, either be super vague (infantry/cavalry regiment), or provide some generic types (light/heavy infantry, light/heavy cavalry, siege train, fighters, bombers, helicopters), each with a quality and tech level if needed. If you go down to swordsmen/spearmen a la civ, you'll end up with too many details imo, both for players and mod.

 

[Starlife]

So then, I'm guessing this is not good at all then... and I should simplify it greatly.

Spoiler :

M i l i t a r y​

There are two kinds of general units: trained and summoned. Each race has unique units that can be trained in settlements of that race. Your starting race (the race of your Wizard and the people living in your Citadel) will provide you with your basic military units. Your Citadel acts as a castle type of settlement. You can train elite units from a Citadel.

Training Units

The standard units that all races can train are as follows: Archers, Swordsmen, Pikemen, Cavalry, Catapults, and Galleys.

Towns can train Javelins, Militia, and Spearmen. Their power is below that of standard units.

Cities can train all standard units, and race-specific units.

Castles can train all standard units, and race-specific units, but they are trained with Elite status (example: Elite Swordsmen).

Here is a list of race-specific units:

High Men can train the famed mounted unit, the Paladin.
Barbarians rely on fast and vicious Berserkers.
High Elves are known for their Longbowmen.
Dark Elves can train the feared Nightblades.
Dwarves can construct powerful Steam Cannons.
Goblins are known for their invincible War Trolls.
Halflings can train skilled Slingers.
Orcs can call upon their gruesome Wyvern Riders.
Gnolls are feared for their Wolf Riders.
Beastmen rely on the power of their Centaurs.

Training units is a straight-forward process. Each unit costs a certain amount of gold to purchase, and another amount of gold to maintain. Each unit has a certain amount of recruits. Each unit has a certain status report. Here is an example:

Spoiler :

Pikemen (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
1,000 trained pikes
40 gold to purchase
20 gold to maintain
Defense Specialty

Elite: Either the unit was trained in a castle, or has experienced many battles.
Veteran: The unit is in exceptional condition. It has fought well in a battle or maybe a few battles, is well-fed, rested, and so on.
Normal: This is how units begin when they are first trained.
Damaged: Troops are wounded or dead and the unit must be healed or rest for a long time.

Unit Listing

Standard Units

Spoiler :

Spoiler Archers :

Archers (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
1,000 trained bows
40 gold to purchase
20 gold to maintain
Ranged Specialty

Spoiler Swordsmen :

Swordsmen (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
1,000 trained swords
40 gold to purchase
20 gold to maintain
Attack Specialty

Spoiler Pikemen :

Pikemen (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
1,000 trained pikes
40 gold to purchase
20 gold to maintain
Defense and Anti-Cavalry Specialty

Spoiler Cavalry :

Cavalry (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
500 trained horses
60 gold to purchase
30 gold to maintain
Movement and Mounted Attack Specialty

Spoiler Catapults :

Catapults (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
10 constructed catapults
80 gold to purchase
40 gold to maintain
Siege Specialty

Spoiler Galleys :

Galleys (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
10 constructed ships
100 gold to purchase
50 gold to maintain
Naval and Transport Specialty

Town-Level Units

Spoiler :

Spoiler Javelins :

Javelins (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
1,000 conscripted javelins
20 gold to purchase
10 gold to maintain
Ranged Specialty

Spoiler Militia :

Militia (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
1,000 conscripted soldiers
20 gold to purchase
10 gold to maintain
Attack Specialty

Spoiler Spearmen :

Spearmen (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
1,000 conscripted spears
20 gold to purchase
10 gold to maintain
Defense Specialty

Race-Specific Units

Spoiler :

Spoiler Paladin :

Paladin (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
250 stalwart knights
100 gold to purchase
50 gold to maintain
Mounted, Attack, and Defense Specialty

Spoiler Berserker :

Berserker (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
500 vicious barbarians
100 gold to purchase
50 gold to maintain
Attack Specialty x3

Spoiler Longbowmen :

Longbowmen (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
500 elegant longbows
100 gold to purchase
50 gold to maintain
Ranged Specialty x2, Attack Specialty

Spoiler Nightblades :

Nightblades (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
500 dark blades
100 gold to purchase
50 gold to maintain
Attack Specialty x2, Defense Specialty

Spoiler Steam Cannons :

Steam Cannons (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
5 crafted cannons
160 gold to purchase
80 gold to maintain
Siege Specialty x2, Defense Specialty

Spoiler War Trolls :

War Trolls (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
10 tame trolls
160 gold to purchase
80 gold to maintain
Siege Specialty x2, Attack Specialty

Spoiler Slingers :

Slingers (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
500 cunning slings
100 gold to purchase
50 gold to maintain
Ranged Specialty, Defense x2 Specialty

Spoiler Wyvern Riders :

Wyvern Riders (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
100 mounted wyverns
140 gold to purchase
70 gold to maintain
Mounted Specialty x2, Attack Specialty

Spoiler Wolf Riders :

Wolf Riders (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
250 mounted wolves
100 gold to purchase
50 gold to maintain
Mounted Specialty, Attack x2 Specialty

Spoiler Centaurs :

Centaurs (Elite / Veteran / Normal / Damaged)
250 disciplined beasts
100 gold to purchase
50 gold to maintain
Mounted Specialty, Defense x2 Specialty

Summoning Units

You may want to research some kind of summoning spell. Summoned creatures can only exist as long as you can maintain them. They are usually extremely powerful, but cost a lot of mana to maintain. Here is an example of a Level 1 Summoning spell, to give you an idea of what kind of summoning spells you can create.

Spoiler :

Summon Fire Elemental
Summon (Attack Specialty)
A smoldering, walking being of fire appears to do your bidding.
100 mana to cast, 100 mana per turn to maintain

What if I wanted to make this summon a bit more complicated? Then expect it to cost more. Example:

Spoiler :

Summon Gargoyles
Summon (Movement Specialty, Defense Specialty)
Call forth a group of gargoyles to fly for your empire.
200 mana to cast, 150 mana per turn to maintain

There are a few different specialties, as you might have already guessed: Attack, Defense, Movement/Mounted, Ranged, and Siege. Typically, when creating summon spells, keep in mind that 100 mana to cast, 100 mana to maintain is the standard for choosing a single specialty. Any more than that, and the price rises (depending on your creature).

 

[Adrogans]

Yeah thats a bit excessive for my taste, though having race specific unique units is a good idea, but I would have maybe Militia, Sword, Pike, Archer, Cavalry otherwise at most.

 

[Vertinari118]

No that's not bad at all. Maybe allow a unique unit (UU) design for each nation as well as race-specific ones. Also maybe apply broader terms to the units, eg. replace javelins with skirmishers and you are pretty much there. It is also good that you have decided to record the eliteness of each unit, most mods would not, and it lends greatly to the strategy complexity of the game. Spells already offer a large area for player customisation so UUs may not be needed, depending on your and other people's opinions.

@Androgans: I would be inclined to agree. However I would argue siege weapons, other than magic, and skirmishers should be included to broaden tactical possibilities for all races and I would prefer infantry to be classed as light and heavy infantry! So I don't agree really.

 

[Adrogans]

Siege okay I'll grant that as well. But skirmishers are simple you order units to be skirmishers. I just do not see the point of over complicating it if you really do not need to.