New NESes, ideas, development, etc

[LDiCesare]

That Halfling unit of 5 adventurers is more valuable than a unit of lancers, yes. That is because those 5 adventurers are exceptional individuals capable of accomplishing great feats. They also have reduced cost for magic-resistant armor, making them very valuable in that they can potentially be immune to the effects of magic. Being magic resistant is quite possibly one of the most advantageous traits to have in this NES because it will make spells useless, allow those 5 adventurers to get behind enemy lines and scout areas or even hassle magic units, and even give them some resistance against summoned units. I mean come on. I'm not going to outline everything and I want players to be creative in what they do with what they have.

So if I understand well, if I design a unit of halflings, I can say it has 1000 or 5 individuals and it will cost the same, and this cost will depend mostly on the equipment of the units? Come on, that's weird.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Stormtrooper Effect?

 

[Starlife]

So if I understand well, if I design a unit of halflings, I can say it has 1000 or 5 individuals and it will cost the same, and this cost will depend mostly on the equipment of the units? Come on, that's weird.

It's not that weird. Let me put it another way: I can easily say that for every gold you spend on a unit, it is equal to 100 soldiers. But now we have a problem. Then the units are all about how much gold you put into them, and have very little tactical advantage.

You are focusing too much on the equipment, and too little on the description. While equipment dictates your unit's cost, descriptive elements dictate what your unit can do. If you have 5 Halflings in a unit with Netheryl, that unit is extremely magic resistant. If you have such a unit or desire such a unit or want such a unit, it will be for a specific purpose, which is to subvert Wizards, magic units, or even summoned creatures. That is why they are called Adventurers. If I sent those 5 Adventurers into battle against 100 barbarians, they would die really quickly. But I wouldn't do that. What I might do in my orders during a war is to send those Adventurers behind enemy lines, or into a cave to fight that magically-enchanted dragon, or to stand up against the summoned Death Knights who are destroying everything in their path.

It should not be viewed as a giant board game, really. I am going to expect creative orders out of players because I am expecting creative building elements.

Stormtrooper Effect?

Not sure what you mean by this.

 

[LDiCesare]

If you have 5 Halflings in a unit with Netheryl, that unit is extremely magic resistant. If you have such a unit or desire such a unit or want such a unit, it will be for a specific purpose, which is to subvert Wizards, magic units, or even summoned creatures. That is why they are called Adventurers.

Sorry, I still don't get it. If I make a 100 halfling unit with Netheryl (for the same price), all you said is still valid. You already include an experience/value ranking (elite etc.) so limiting the numbers hardly makes any change.
Or is it impossible to be creative in splitting a unit or sending only part of them in the dungeons where the dragon hides when the rest remains outdoors to guard the entry?

 

[Starlife]

Sorry, I still don't get it. If I make a 100 halfling unit with Netheryl (for the same price), all you said is still valid. You already include an experience/value ranking (elite etc.) so limiting the numbers hardly makes any change.
Or is it impossible to be creative in splitting a unit or sending only part of them in the dungeons where the dragon hides when the rest remains outdoors to guard the entry?

The number isn't the issue. You can send them into the dungeons of course, and fighting a dragon might be better with creatively-geared orders involving what you are equipped with / what your traits are.

If you make a Halfling unit with Netheryl with 100 troops for the same price, so be it. Sneaking around behind enemy lines will suddenly become significantly more difficult with 95 more men. I am saying that units are designed for a specific purpose that you have in mind, and creativity reigns there. It is up to you to think what advantage 5 is versus 100... I am not going to sit here and type the plethora of reasons a smaller number might come in handy in certain situations.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

The Stormtrooper Effect is also known as the Inverse Mook Rule, or the Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu- it states that a group of 1000 adversaries is easily defeated, while a group of two is a deadly foe. Helpful Link.

 

[Starlife]

The Stormtrooper Effect is also known as the Inverse Mook Rule, or the Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu- it states that a group of 1000 adversaries is easily defeated, while a group of two is a deadly foe. Helpful Link.

That was enlightening, Lord Iggy.

Yet still it is not what I am getting at. Those 5 Halflings would quickly get their throats slit if they went up to a unit of cheaper 100 barbarians. No question there.

I am more wanting players to come up with unique ways to use units. If you can't come up with a unique way to use a unit of 5 magic-resistant Halflings, then don't conquer a Halfling city or don't recruit those units. But I'm sure another player might just as well use that unit for something.

 

[LDiCesare]

I was saying that it is "creative" to say you split a 100 man unit into 20 groups of 5.

 

[Ekolite]

I think what Starlife effectively means is that if the group is smaller, the same cost is being spread over a smaller number of people, making each individual more powerful. They would have better equipment, abilities etc then a group of 100 men of the same type (and cost).

I think that's it anyway.

Nice idea though Starlife, I like the unit customisation idea particularly. Not sure about the mana reinvestment thing though, simply because the hurdles you have to jump essentially confine you to doing nothing for turns on end, players that choose to do this will not be contributing to interesting updates, and because of the high rates its quite an attractive thing to do. You don't want everyone sitting there for 3 turns doing f all waiting for their mana levels to increase do you?

 

[Starlife]

I think what Starlife effectively means is that if the group is smaller, the same cost is being spread over a smaller number of people, making each individual more powerful. They would have better equipment, abilities etc then a group of 100 men of the same type (and cost).

I think that's it anyway.

Nice idea though Starlife, I like the unit customisation idea particularly. Not sure about the mana reinvestment thing though, simply because the hurdles you have to jump essentially confine you to doing nothing for turns on end, players that choose to do this will not be contributing to interesting updates, and because of the high rates its quite an attractive thing to do. You don't want everyone sitting there for 3 turns doing f all waiting for their mana levels to increase do you?

Thanks Ekolite. What I mean is that those 5 men have some fine equipment and they receive it cheaper because of their race. They are capable of more heroic/character-based feats, moreso than straight all-out military warfare. They are individuals rather than numbers, in a sense. The possibilities are quite endless.

Here is the prethread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=419280

We can discuss more there. I, too, am apprehensive about Channeling Mana. As suggested by someone here (I think Northen Wolf), I thought it might be good to have an alternative to expansion. But yes, such updates from players would be boring - I can't see a way to reconcile them. I like the idea in theory, but it is difficult to see what players would send orders about in the situation.

I think every Wizard's aim should be expansion, any way. That is kind of the point of coming to Ethereal.

 

[Ekolite]

EDIT: nm

 

[SKILORD]

Not sure what you mean by this.

You have a billion clone troops and you're so proud of their nice fancy uniforms until you're collecting the blood soaked remains off of Endor where they were killed by an army of fluffy bears...

EDIT: I'ma leave it up even after I read the succeeding posts. "I like my way better." is what Mubutu said in Lord of War I think.

 

[Terrance888]

So many good NESes and so little time. I am already in 6 awesome NESes, and there are more... and more and more!

I remember when I had more time were once I was in 13 NESes and sent 6 orders one night, one after the other.

 

[vruchten]

.. i was somehow pondering with the idea for a fantasy religion NES for a while already.. nothing that specific yet.. just a classic but rather plain fantasy world with fantasy races but no religions until now.. every player would be one founder of religion starting to gather followers, forming a sect, becoming a mayor religion, make that state-religion in different states, go for crusade...

now beside customizing the religious themes and stuff player could choose to take civics for their church, i started a list (below):

Civics:
Supremacist
Your religion preaches the supremacy of a certain race. You get a bonus on gaining members of said race but get a disadvantage while gaining members of all other race.

Egalitarian
It is an core feature of your religion to believe that all (or most) races are equal. Your preachers will get a smaller disadvantage while preaching to members of a different race. But a smaller advantage while preaching to member of their own race

Inferioritist
Your religion preaches that members of a certain race are to be enslaved or even extinguish. Members of your church will get a bonus on fighting against members of said race. But you will get a mayor disadvantage while preaching to members of said race.

Secretive
Members of your religion do not show their devotion in public. The amount of members within a region is hidden because of this. You get a bonus on stealth operation. But a disadvantage on gaining new members.

Confessing
Members of your religion are showing their devotion at any time and they would never hide it. You get a bonus on gaining new members. But are restricted from any stealth operations.

Absolutist
Your religion does not allow any other religion at their side. If state religion it is easy for you to fight against minor religions. Your general members will more likely to fight against other religions. Coexistence is not possible.

Tolerant
Your religion allows other religions to exist at their side. If minor religion it is less likely that you are doing to be illegal. If state religion it is very difficult to forbit others.

Elitist
Your religion is for selected members only. You gain a bonus while preaching to the upper class, while getting a disadvantage while preaching to the normal populace.

Populist
Your religion is there for the normal people. You gain a bonus while preaching to the normal populace, while getting a disadvantage while preaching to the upper class.

players could decide to adopt as many civics as they like (but some would exclude each other like elitist and populist)

any comment, anything to add?

 

[hbar]

Why would there be no religion, and then suddenly, lots of religions? I think it would be more believable if an established religion were disgraced and is in the process of falling from power. Then it makes more sense that a bunch of upstarts are vying for the power left by a vacuum.

 

[vruchten]

Why would there be no religion, and then suddenly, lots of religions? I think it would be more believable if an established religion were disgraced and is in the process of falling from power. Then it makes more sense that a bunch of upstarts are vying for the power left by a vacuum.

Probably i would go with something like this: there was a religion devoted to the all-father (the creator-god), but be died or retired for some reason.. anyway he is not influencing the world any more and so the interest in him his fading..
now his archangels are filling the gap, and are revealing themselves as gods..

(of course this backstory would be filled when the nes would happen)

and about the civics?

 

[LDiCesare]

About the god dying out/leaving, it certainly works (see my old dominionNES for instance). You could also start fresh after the Ragnarok or something similar. However, in all these cases, it either requires the gods to actually exist for the setting to make sense, or the previous religion would have foretold its own end (and renewal?) somehow.

The civics I feel sound quite restrictive. I'd rather let people design their own religion freely.

 

[vruchten]

About the god dying out/leaving, it certainly works (see my old dominionNES for instance). You could also start fresh after the Ragnarok or something similar. However, in all these cases, it either requires the gods to actually exist for the setting to make sense, or the previous religion would have foretold its own end (and renewal?) somehow.

The civics I feel sound quite restrictive. I'd rather let people design their own religion freely.

at the beginning of the game the world would be rather fresh. in the sense that all culture is young. a world after ragnarok could do the thing.
and yes, the gods would actually exist.. but the players would not play them.. but the prophets and church.. at a certain stage it would be similar as if you are aiming on a religious victory in ffh.
the more followers one religion gets in the world the more direct influence a god could get. and this power could be channelled through priests..

i thought of giving the people total freedom in designing their religion, but to give some guidelines for the church..(for game issues mainly, because all those traits would be directly influencing the game).. also i could imagine to give the players the opportunity to design one unique trait.

 

[Milarqui]

Say, a Homeworld kind of game could be interesting, don't you think so?

Have all your people live in an artificial planet that you can move, and use that as your base. Planets you encounter on your way would be traded with for resources or just ransacked if you feel like it or there isn't anything living there. You can take the remains from battles and convert those to new resources or study the ships for new things... Endless possibilities, easier to make than my old idea.

Opinions?

 

[nutranurse]

Well it certainly sounds interesting. I'd be curious to see the mechanics behind it all.