New NESes, ideas, development, etc

[Israelite9191]

How will you determine which nations have good relations with other nations?

Mod discretion. Basically, it comes down to a combination of official agreements (Celtic Reformed Bloc alliance, Chagatai-Lahore alliance, East Asian tributary systems, royal marriages, and the like), past relations (such as who was on what side of the German War of Religion), and various diplomatic events.[/QUOTE]

And out of curiosity, how would you have the Swiss Pikemen mercenaries not fight each other? Simply not have opposing nations recruit them?

No, those opposing nations could recruit them, the recruits just would refuse to fight if you directed them at each other. Or at least, that's what I think he means.

North King is quite right. In OTL basically every country in Europe employed the Swiss, but the Swiss refused to fight each other on the battlefield.

@Stormbringer: Minimalist in extremis, precisely my cup of tea, particularly for a fresh start.

 

[Supermath]

Also, I plan on using something similar to the rules Azale used in his latest NES. However, I am not sure which cities would be considered ECs in 1861. Would it be possible if someone could make such a list? I would be eternally grateful if you did.

Come to think about it, would NoP NES II make for a good place to start? Obviously, there'd be some changes (Houston was barely a town back then, for example), but for the most part would this work?

 

[Dachs]

Come to think about it, would NoP NES II make for a good place to start? Obviously, there'd be some changes (Houston was barely a town back then, for example), but for the most part would this work?

The 1880s are indeed a nice time to start a NES.

 

[Supermath]

The 1880s are indeed a nice time to start a NES.

Someone didn't see the post that was quoting. I'm just looking for a map to use to get an idea of what cities should be ECs.

 

[Dachs]

Someone didn't see the post that was quoting. I'm just looking for a map to use to get an idea of what cities should be ECs.

Ah. Take a gander at the population charts of world cities, for example in Europe, noting how fast some of them grew during the interval between 1861 and the 1880s, and judge from that.

 

[Supermath]

Ah. Take a gander at the population charts of world cities, for example in Europe, noting how fast some of them grew during the interval between 1861 and the 1880s, and judge from that.

Well, I'd assume that there'd be some sort of discrepancy between population and importance. Also, it would also be nice to know about how many ECs I should have.

 

[North King]

Have ECs give different number of eco points. Paris giving the same bonus as Krakow doesn't make any sense, but both should give a bonus.

Not that that answers your question. I'd say, make a preliminary map, post it, and ask for criticism. Another method is using GDP figures.

 

[Supermath]

Have ECs give different number of eco points. Paris giving the same bonus as Krakow doesn't make any sense, but both should give a bonus.

How would it be represented though? My one thought is to make red equal to 1, orange 2, and up to blue as 5, though that might start to get a bit confusing.

 

[North King]

How would it be represented though? My one thought is to make red equal to 1, orange 2, and up to blue as 5, though that might start to get a bit confusing.

Yes, especially as the other colors are generally accepted to mean other things with many NESes. Color intensity (light red shading to dark red) is another option, though that means you'll have to basically give up one whole color in map drawing. You could use a combination of this and city shape (4x4 squares give more points than the fat cross), but your options there run out quickly. I think I'd simply list in the stats where income comes from, even though that might get tedious.

 

[das]

Basically, it comes down to a combination of official agreements (Celtic Reformed Bloc alliance, Chagatai-Lahore alliance, East Asian tributary systems, royal marriages, and the like), past relations (such as who was on what side of the German War of Religion), and various diplomatic events.

I'm not sure if official state relations would have that much influence on the decisions of mercenaries, except in cases when it means actively assisting a current enemy of one's country against it. Other than that, I would think personal ties and maybe cultural ties and contacts would be much more influential (I mean, this isn't the Age of Nationalism). For instance, by this model, wouldn't the Swiss have better relations with France than with the Habsburgs?

 

[Supermath]

Okay, since Google appears to be failing me, is there a site that lists cities by population for certain years?

 

[Dachs]

Okay, since Google appears to be failing me, is there a site that lists cities by population for certain years?

populstat.info does, with associated reservations about city sizes outside of Europe and America.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Military!

Manpower Pool(% That at start of long update)/Elan/Mobilisable
Headquarters Army Staff Description/Competence/£Maintenance/Training Ability/Strain
Headquarters Navy Staff Description/Competence/£Maintenance/Training Ability/Strain
Short Range/Long Range/Stockpile (Policy Level/Internal Production)
Navy Range/Merchant Marine/Fuel Stocks (Policy Level/Internal Production)

The military starts off, as it always does, with the raw manpower of your nation. This is a single numeric of as yet unused men, and rather than explicitly represent poor/good recruits I'm going to say old men and boys count for half a working age chap apiece. At the start of every long update I'm going to take out 20% of the current army's strength from the pool, to represent turnover in the armed forces. Don't let the percentage rise too high, or it will start hurting your economy and demographic growth! Elan measures the willingness of the average man of the heartland to fight for your nation on the scale (Slave Soldiers-Serf Conscripts-Scum of the Earth-Free Men-Citizens-Patriots-Zealots), and has several effects from being used in conjunction with the armies strain to work out moral, to the political costs of mobilisation. 'Mobilisable' indicates how many men you can move from the Pool to the two Reserves in a three month period, you can improve this with policy, though it will increase your command staffs maintenance.

For the Army Headquarters you start with a brief description of its culture and name. Then there is the competence, a descriptor which indicates how effectively they will act out your orders (or modify them in an emergency), and the quality of information they present you with. This can be improved slightly with better education and external advisers, and impressively by actually going to war. Maintenance is based on how many men you have under arms, their distance from base, plus the level of training they can provide and number of men they can mobilise. The Training ability refers to the level the new men come into the reserve at (see below), again it can be raised by policy. Finally the strain they are under with carrying out your current military plans. The Navy Headquarters line has the same options as the ArmyHQ Line.

Next comes the logistics lines, beginning with two ranges for the army. Possible ranges go Core-Internal-Local-Continental-Overseas-Global, where the 'short range' and below is where you can easily exert armed force, 'Long Range' and below being much more difficult due to lack of experience and infrastructure. 'Core' refers to your economic regions that are urban and industrial, whilst a blue-water navy is needed in conjunction with Overseas and Global operations. The Stockpile refers to all the supplies your army needs to keep functioning, and is listed in how many months you have left at current consumption rates (there will be an underling numeric, but I don't think its very useful to show or really look at myself), plus your stockpile policy and internal production rate for if your trade is cut off. Keeping stockpiles will have a maintenance cost, and will probably scare our neighbours if you have huge ones . If you have free access to the rest of the world army maintenance will cover replenishment each short update.

The Naval Range goes Riverine-Brownwater-Greenwater-Bluewater, and the merchant marine is given in Mt of shipping capacity. Fuel, although not a stat at the beginning of the NES will become important when the steam conversion hits, and again gives how long the navy can function in months, plus the stockpile policy and internal production rate for if your trade is cut off.

Armies
The player has multiple armies, one of which is always called 'Reserve' and indicates the training facilities and emergency (<3 months) actionable troops. Since there will be a floor of army of costs , and increasing the number of armies adds to each armies 'strain' modifier based on the nations total ability to supply them (due to their competing for supplies and political favour).

Army Name/Location/Competence/£Maintenance/Strain/X divisions of (Y troops) of (Z training) and (W equipment) with (Named Leaders)

Competence here refers to the officer competence and organisational ability. Not the skill of individual soldiers which is placed under 'training'. Essentially a high competence and high training will do what you tell them to do effectively, high competence and low training will do what you tell them to do badly, low competence and high training will do what they feel like rather well, low both will just suck . Both competence and training will increase as the army is hardened in campaigns. Training comes in the following levels: Green-Conscript-Combat-Hardened-Veteran-Elite

Brigades are the smaller units of troops that are deployed on executive orders, such as marines and special forces that are utilised without a proper declaration of war, for small colonial conflicts, or for small 'executive' ordered actions within a broader scope of war. Note that when ordering Brigades into action they use the naval range stat rather than the army range stats – you can still conduct small operations anywhere your ships get too, even if you can't send tens of thousands of troops.

Brigades Pool/Competence/Training/£Maintenance/Strain
-Named Colonels associated

Navies
A players navy is organised into fleets, though these are rather more flexible than armies in size and structure. You have a special 'fleets'; Reserve, which contains ships that have been built, but not crewed, and it is moving ships from the reserve to active duty ('Commissioning' in old British parlance) that consumes manpower, not the building ships alone. Having lots of fleets will also add strain, but at higher levels than having lots of armies.

Fleet Name/Location/Competence/Strain/Ships(Damaged)/Admirals

All fleets use the NavalHQ training stat rather than individual ones due to the shifting nature of crews and fleets. Ships have a trinary nature in that they can be fine, damaged, or sunk.

'Named' individuals refer to special personalities that will give a bonus to combat when employed, a random generator will produced 'seeds' from combat which will be PM to players, on providing a written back story they will occur as 'Names'.

Example Stats for the KoSDN

MP(%)/Élan/Mobil: 770,000 (96%)/Citizens/50k
ArmHQ/Comp/£M/TA/St: General Staff, Aristocratic/Medium/£10/Combat/None
NavHQ/Comp/£M/TA/St: Stockholm Naval School, Professional/Good/£8/Combat/None
SRange/LRange/Stockpile (PLevel/IP): Internal/Local/12m (12m/5m)
NRange/MM/Fuel (PLevel/IP): Bluewater/5million/~

Army Name/Location/Competence/£Maintenance/Strain/X troops in (Y divisions) of (Z training) and (W equipment)/Named Leaders)
Reserve/Sweden/Poor/£15/None/30k men in 1 Division (Combat) and No Equipment
Royal Army/Sweden/Medium/£20/Slight/80k men in 2 Divisions (Combat,Combat) and 200 Basic Artillery/Prince Oscar

Brigades Pool/Comp/Tra/£M/Str: 2/Medium/Veteran/£1/None

Fleet Name/Location/Competence/Strain/Ships(Damaged)/Admirals
Reserve/Sweden/~/£1/None/ 4 1st-rates, 1 3rd-rates, 4 Frigates
Baltic Navy/Baltic/High/£6/None/ 7 1st-rates, 10 3rd-rates, 8 Frigates
North Sea Guard/North Sea/£1/ 9 Frigates

How war will work
Once you have your polity behind you (or not as the case may be), you can now go to war! You do this by giving each army and fleet strategic orders and some operational orders (lots of operational constraints will increase the strain they are under however) like 'Take the Rhineland, and especially Koln' for a strategic order and 'try and conserve manpower' or 'kill every German!' (channelling Silver there ). Since these are for short updates you only need to give three months or so, and you should not give tactical level detail – you are the Chief Executive, his cabinet and top generals back in the capital. If you want you can be Napoleon and give tactical level advice for one army or fleet showing that El Supreme is riding with that army, and this will show up in the leaders column. Naturally that army losing is a massive loss of political capital and reduces your governments efficiency back home.
Campaigns will be plotted out by me, with a few engagements occurring between divisions of opposing armies and determined by a formula probably something like this: k1Manpower*k2Morale(elan+training+recent victories-strain-recent defeats)*Luck(a N(1,x) with SD of 10%)*Terrain*k3(1+Unit Firepower)*k4(1+Support Firepower)*k5(Mobility)*k6(1-Bad Supply)

 

[jalapeno_dude]

No one else has posted? Really? Then I'll take a crack at it.

Elan

Not élan?

on the scale (Slave Soldiers-Serf Conscripts-Scum of the Earth-Free Men-Citizens-Patriots-Zealots)

[rant]Really? A scale? Haven't we moved past that? Do I really need to point out that it's stupid when you're running a monarchy and your level is at Citizens, or a society in feudalism and your level is at Free Men? Please, just make it a descriptor and ditch the scale, or at least make the word levels actually imply higher willingness to enlist and nothing else. Please.[/rant]

maintenance.

Does the sum of all maintenance costs add up to the Military Maintenance stat, or are there hidden costs involved as well?

how effectively they will act out your orders (or modify them in an emergency), and the quality of information they present you with

Is that second part equivalent to espionage? If so, shouldn't that really be a separate stat (the CIA is not a branch of the Pentagon)? If not, shouldn't there be a stat for your espionage services?

'Long Range' and below being much more difficult due to lack of experience and infrastructure.

What about beyond Long Range? The KSFN could clearly send troops to Africa if it really wanted, so what is Long Range the cut-off for? The point at which you need to spend extra political capital, or something like that?

internal production rate for if your trade is cut off

For what time-frame? The KSFN produces 5 months of supplies internally--per year, per month, per decade?

Training comes in the following levels: Green-Conscript-Combat-Hardened-Veteran-Elite

Levels again. Can someone who wasn't conscripted be at Conscript training? Can a Veteran never have fought? See? Silly.

anywhere your ships get too

Does that mean Long Range, or the literal meaning of that statement? See above.

manpower

Doesn't appear to be listed for fleets. I assume that's an oversight? Ships need people too!

'Named' individuals refer to special personalities that will give a bonus to combat when employed, a random generator will produced 'seeds' from combat which will be PM to players, on providing a written back story they will occur as 'Names'.

Cool idea. I approve.

Campaigns will be plotted out by me, with a few engagements occurring between divisions of opposing armies and determined by a formula probably something like this: k1Manpower*k2Morale(elan+training+recent victories-strain-recent defeats)*Luck(a N(1,x) with SD of 10%)*Terrain*k3(1+Unit Firepower)*k4(1+Support Firepower)*k5(Mobility)*k6(1-Bad Supply)

[/QUOTE]

You're not using QJM? Can you talk about the reason why not? k1, k2, etc. indicate constants, right? And shouldn't leadership be taken into account somewhere in there?

 

[Symphony D.]

Retroactive deletion.

 

[Disenfrancised]

[rant]Really? A scale? Haven't we moved past that? Do I really need to point out that it's stupid when you're running a monarchy and your level is at Citizens, or a society in feudalism and your level is at Free Men? Please, just make it a descriptor and ditch the scale, or at least make the word levels actually imply higher willingness to enlist and nothing else. Please.[/rant]

Yeah there certainly no different in willingness to fight in the Crimean War between Russian Serfs and Anglo-French subjects now was there? Who the heck says changing this level is going to be at all easy - this is not an early das NES where you can spend an EP to make your men more willing to fight? You can make it a descriptor if you like, just imagine the line without the hyphens

Does the sum of all maintenance costs add up to the Military Maintenance stat, or are there hidden costs involved as well?

Yeah they all add up to the require military maintenance.

Is that second part equivalent to espionage? If so, shouldn't that really be a separate stat (the CIA is not a branch of the Pentagon)? If not, shouldn't there be a stat for your espionage services?

The Civilian Intelligence Agency is not a branch of the pentagon, and espionage will be under the 'Research' section.

What about beyond Long Range? The KSFN could clearly send troops to Africa if it really wanted, so what is Long Range the cut-off for? The point at which you need to spend extra political capital, or something like that?

Military Action<Short Range: This is easy.
Short Range<Military Action<Long Range: This is much more expensive and will put your troops under greater strain.
Long Range<Military Action: This will be hugely expensive and probably fail and your stupid for trying it .

Note one thing I did forget to mention is that you can use an allies supply system and thus operate very well in the their core even if its beyond long range for you normally (this makes courting smaller powers generally very useful).

Does that mean Long Range, or the literal meaning of that statement? See above.

Brigades can go anywhere you navy can since they are small forces separate from the main logistics train (for a deployment through land they use your Long Range stat). Thus a blue water navy can land a brigade anywhere but not an army.

Doesn't appear to be listed for fleets. I assume that's an oversight? Ships need people too!

Each ship type will require a certain number of men to operate - when they are moved from the reserve to active service they will take that from the Main Pool - somewhat inelegant but good enough I feel .

You're not using QJM? Can you talk about the reason why not? k1, k2, etc. indicate constants, right? And shouldn't leadership be taken into account somewhere in there?

k's are always konstant.

You mean why not use a QJM, specifically Dupuy's QJM, since technically any numeric model, including this one, is a Quantified Judgment Method. And in answer to that what I've outline should be similar to it in principle: note the Unit Firepower (Infantry Weapons) and Support Firepower (Artillery weapons)* and so on which will certainly be nicked from Dupuy. The reasons I'm not using the actual QJM are a) because I have little interest in explicitly working out the full ~40 Dupuy inputs for every fricking engagement (I ain't Daft) and so wanted a simplified model that uses the stats I already have, and b) Since this is a simulative rather than predictive model I've a clean conscious about throwing out a bunch of functions for a stochastic input.

*Different names were used in the post as I had forgotten what Dupuy called them.

 

[Luckymoose]

The answer to that one is in fact yes, as given by the fact Veteran's Day refers to all military personnel, and anyone who retires after a certain period of service is a veteran.

That doesn't meant they have any training beyond that of a recruit or conscript. Pretty sure he Veteran in this sense means someone who has seen many battles and learned from them. Something that cannot be purchased.

 

[Symphony D.]

Retroactive deletion.

 

[Supermath]

Okay, this is what I have for ECs. I probably added a few too many, but better too many than too few. Any major problems as far as you can tell (I probably made India overpowered, though that's just me)?

Spoiler :

 

[North King]

No, India is right relative to England. Should be about equal, with the balance slowly shifting to England as time goes on.