Abaddon
Deity
Gah, why use that eye-bleeding glowmap?
New NESes, ideas, development, etc
- Thread starter das
- Start date
Abaddon
Deity
Personally the thing hurts my eyes. :shrug:
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Psh, they should be having their country fills in a completely separate layer so selecting it never even comes up
.@NK, the UK:India flip point occurred late 1890's, in 1860 the UK should be 3/4th India in raw GDP. Of course this ignores that the UK economy was vastly more monetized and comprehensively taxed, and that most of the Indian income would not be available to the UK player as taxed income.
It has also occurred to me that I'm going to have to make army upkeep costs almost prohibitive for the British, as otherwise I have a feeling that the first turn's orders will be "spend 50 EC on armies and kill everyone".
I blame Paint.NET's global fill option.
I blame Paint.NET's global fill option.
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
Daftpanzer
canonically ambiguous
I'm just kinda jumping in here, as usual, with some ideas of my own, that I just had 
Apologies if this doesn't make too much sense.
-Proposed stats stuff for revived or future DaftNESes, comments welcome-
The first part of stats is stuff you can compare with other countries/polities, as usual:
Base level: a rough rating of combined power, weight, muscle, development, influence etc. For easy comparison with other countries, and kinda like a multiplying factor for other stats.
Proposed tech levels: Neolithic - Ancient (inc. iron/bronze ages) - Classical - Medieval - Enlightened (gunpowder etc) - Industrial (19th cent) - Post-Industrial (ww1 to nuclear bombs) - Electronic (late 50's onwards) - Futuristic (2000 onwards)
Epic Points: Super spending points, things that can spark golden ages, major reforms, or epic conquests. Gained at much slower rate, and from random events, or great achievements. Bank-able.
Leadership Points: Mini spending points, that you gain every turn. There may actually be more than one per turn, or none at all, depending on how stable things are. Non-bank-able.
Wealth Points: Basic eco points with weaker effects than leadership points, but can be stockpiled and traded. The amount gained per turn depends on various things but mainly the relationship between supply and demand (very bottom part of stats).
Now, the values in the second part of the stats are totally in relation to the needs, moods, requirements, attitudes, and territory size of the specific country. The values can be negative. Without investment of effort/leadership/focus/wealth, all stats will have a tendency to slowly move towards 0.
SO when updating, I wouldn't have to worry too much about keeping all the stats for different nations at appropriate levels in relation to each other. Previously I have found myself spending a lot of time tweaking stats to do just that. What I mean is, it was often a pain to represent the effects of defeats and disasters in the stats, without making a country seem like it had become too weak compared to its neighbours, and so on. It was a pain to make sure that no nations had strangely high stat ratings, or too low ones, compared to what ought to be the highest, lowest, and the global average for each stat.
The idea of this system provides a minimum info for comparing with other countries, while the rest shows the 'needs' of the country and only hints at how it compares to the rest of the world (in relation to 'Base Level' for that country).
Examples:
Apologies if this doesn't make too much sense.-Proposed stats stuff for revived or future DaftNESes, comments welcome-
The first part of stats is stuff you can compare with other countries/polities, as usual:
Base level: a rough rating of combined power, weight, muscle, development, influence etc. For easy comparison with other countries, and kinda like a multiplying factor for other stats.
Proposed tech levels: Neolithic - Ancient (inc. iron/bronze ages) - Classical - Medieval - Enlightened (gunpowder etc) - Industrial (19th cent) - Post-Industrial (ww1 to nuclear bombs) - Electronic (late 50's onwards) - Futuristic (2000 onwards)
Epic Points: Super spending points, things that can spark golden ages, major reforms, or epic conquests. Gained at much slower rate, and from random events, or great achievements. Bank-able.
Leadership Points: Mini spending points, that you gain every turn. There may actually be more than one per turn, or none at all, depending on how stable things are. Non-bank-able.
Wealth Points: Basic eco points with weaker effects than leadership points, but can be stockpiled and traded. The amount gained per turn depends on various things but mainly the relationship between supply and demand (very bottom part of stats).
Now, the values in the second part of the stats are totally in relation to the needs, moods, requirements, attitudes, and territory size of the specific country. The values can be negative. Without investment of effort/leadership/focus/wealth, all stats will have a tendency to slowly move towards 0.
SO when updating, I wouldn't have to worry too much about keeping all the stats for different nations at appropriate levels in relation to each other. Previously I have found myself spending a lot of time tweaking stats to do just that. What I mean is, it was often a pain to represent the effects of defeats and disasters in the stats, without making a country seem like it had become too weak compared to its neighbours, and so on. It was a pain to make sure that no nations had strangely high stat ratings, or too low ones, compared to what ought to be the highest, lowest, and the global average for each stat.
The idea of this system provides a minimum info for comparing with other countries, while the rest shows the 'needs' of the country and only hints at how it compares to the rest of the world (in relation to 'Base Level' for that country).
Examples:
Spoiler :
Ninja Dude
Sorry, I wasn't listening...
Looks pretty good. Perhaps you could use this system to make an NES based on your Alternate Timeline Experiment.
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
"Here I go again on my own, down the only road I've ever known..."
Research
Global
Technological Clade: Name
Description:
Pure:
Applied:
A technological clade is a culture and system of accumulated knowledge descending from a common root. The old NESing idea of each state being an island in terms of its knowledge base is pretty damn stupid outside very specific periods (WW2 being the only one to come to mind), everything shades into each other being on the fringe of a technological culture just means you have to pay more for the good gear. In my NES there is only one clade: European Enlightenment, which by the time of the setting (mid-19th) has greatly overpowered and engulfed the other technological clades to an extent that they are negligible, or can be described in reference to the European Enlightenment clade. If someone was to use this ruleset for pre-1750 NESing you would naturally have multiple clades of knowledge. Naturally each clade has a description of its general methodology and culture, as well as a listing of what is encompassed by it in the pure and applied fields of knowledge. These will obviously not be exhaustive listings, but enough so that players can hang it onto the OTL of what's possible an not, as well as noting surprisingly advanced/******ed developments. Clades advance as a mass if nation A has 50 times the research capacity of B then then the clade as a whole will advance by 51 units a decade, but B will only be slightly less capable than A at most.
Example (the one in the NES will be better
Technological Clade: European Enlightenment
Description: Broadly similar to 1850s OTL
Pure:Less developed socio-economics (no Marxism), Better 'Evolution' Knowledge subverted into earlier faux-racial theories.
Applied:Better Telecommunications and Artillery
National
Clade/Position(Descriptor)
Exceptional Developments:
Research Facilities(description)/Size/Quality/£Cost
Intelligence(Formality)/Reputation/$Size(regionalisms)/Operational Quality/Analysis Quality/Strain/Overhead$
$-Significant Espionage Operation (Description/Cost)$
(remember everything delimited with $ is secret)
Here we have the stats for each nations individual knowledge base, beginning with their clade membership and their position within it. Position can have several different values, the basic of which is 'Normal' indicate that nearly all of your competencies falls within the main clade description. Then there is 'Cutting Edge' where a good portion of your knowledge is more advanced than the main part of the clade, though things that are cutting edge will soon become commonplace within a few updates. Then there is 'Lagging', 'Fringe', and 'Outsider'; the former indicates a nation with a poor higher education and sluggish economy that finds it difficult to implement the new developments of the clade, whilst the latter two indicate nations that are only loosely connected with the advancing clade, and do not really contribute to its overall advance (Lagging(e.g. Russia)>Fringe(e.g. Persia)>Outsider(e.g. Pre-Meji Japan)). For the three lower categories the technologies main body of the clades 'Applied' knowledge, are available but cost considerably more cash and effort, and 'Pure' knowledge is even harder. In summation, being cutting edge is nice, but not that great, but you really don't want to be lagging or lower.
Exceptional developments lists anything your nation can produce that is either significantly better or worse than your position might indicate along the lines of 'Bigger Ship Guns', 'Superb Sociology', 'Dryland Agriculture'. These will both pop up randomly based on your level of education/activities or can be explicitly developed via a policy. Over 2-4 long updates they will of course flow into the main knowledge of the clade and will no longer be listed under your stats.
The 'Research Facilities' line is for state organised, permanent, institutions for research and development that are outside of a nations higher education system. They are different from policy goals to produce a certain application, and will chug along independently of the main government (though you can of course offer suggestions or overall directives), increasing the rate of random positive exceptional developments, the development of the clade as a whole and lowering the cost and time of related policy goals. The first entry is a list of what kind of research facilities you have, the types available being listed in the clades description. Naturally as my NES will begin in the mid-19th century very few will be available, in fact only 'NavalConstruction' will be there at the start. The size and quality will just be descriptors, as obviously what counts as big or small will change over time, though there will be some hidden values underlying them to produce the rate of development. If I demean it necessary (and the NES lasts into the 1930s
Then we have the intelligence services, starting with the services name and formal status. Nearly nations did maintain formal intelligence and espionage services until the early 20th century, and its for this reason Intelligence is held separately from the military. Types of formality include: Spymaster, Political Connections, Diplomatic Adjunct, Military Adjunct, Contractor, Ad Hoc, Review Committee, Special Police, Service, Multiple Services, or combinations of the former. Any except the last four will be listed in the public stats as 'None', but are generally more inept, and the last three are not available to the European Enlightenment Clade as the NES starts. Then you have descriptions of the size, operational quality (going out and doing things e.g. assassination or theft), analysis quality (Dear Mr President, India has been invaded by unknown forces wearing black masks, they constantly receive new supplies from the South Atlantic and speak Portuguese when interrogated, but we have no clue where they are from...), and the good old strain and overhead. Until formal services are formed the overheads will be negligible. Finally there is a secret list of major operations the nation is undertaking (more for the mods benefit than the players
Example Stats for the KoSFN
Clade/Position: European Enlightenment/Normal
Exceptional: Naval Engines, General Medicine
ResFac/Size/Quality/£Cost: Academy of Naval Construction/Tiny/Fine/-
Intelligence(Formality)/Rep: Diplomatic Adjunct/Minimal
Spoiler :
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
No one responded to my last one? Alright then better finish this off with the littlest section:
Government
Military
Research
Economics
Now to finish off the stats!
Here is the most recent interation of the map:
And a pdf of the current version of the timeline is attached to this post (warning 40k words!), note some small changes to that timeline may occur, and the last few years are a bit sparse. The latter is so that I can retcon political figures and changes players bring in at the start of the NES so that they don't just appear de novo in a summary of the TL and NES.
And nations people have already expressed an interest in:
The Kingdom of Sweden-Finland-Norway - Dachs
Californian Republic - JosefStalinator
Republic of Texas - Azale
New England Republic - Masada (maybe?)
Now accepting applications for states via PM or AIM (Disenfrancised), and I am not the slightest bit interested in your 'past achievements', I wish to know what you want to do in the future with this nation/rebellion/whatever. A short paragraph will suffice of course, you can apply for multiple nations, and incoherent writing will be frowned upon.
NOTES:
1] If anyone wants to play Greater Peru or Wanciyate can you please speak up now so I know if I should make long stats for them.
2] The Omani Sultanate is not playable as of the start, it just needs a colour to show its distant holdings.
3] I could be convinced to make New Granada, Morocco, or Hellas playable, but it will take a considerable amount of persuation.
4] The nations that major or minor now may not be that way forever, if you don't spot any you like right now I urge checking back after a few updates to see whats happened.
Government
Military
Research
Economics
Demographics
Population/Growth Rate/Subregions
Core Identity/Minorities (Notes)
Standard of Living/Life Expectancy/Literacy Index/Education Index/Inequality Index/Rough unemployment Rate/£Overhead
Technical Education/Higher Education
Road Coverage/Rail Coverage/Port Infrastructure/£Maintenance
The demographics listing should all be quite self explanatory. It starts with the gross population, a rough percentage growth rate (note this is an estimate for the next turn, actual growth may vary due to randomness, immigration and emigration), and the population of the various subregions listed in the economy section (these won't be named, but this section will be immediately under the economy one). Then comes the core identit(y/ies) of the polity, and significant minorities. These can be ethnic and or religious categories, and the notes section describes special circumstances of the minorities (like slavery). Then you have the human development line, with a standard of living descriptor, a numerical life expectancy and % literacy rate, an education rate (a gross enrolment ratio), a measurement of inequality based on the Gini index but mainly produced by fiat, an unemployment percentage, and the amount of money government services are using to maintain these (though government services are far from the only thing effecting them). Finally you have descriptions of the size and quality of the nations technical and higher education, that are linked to some hidden numbers that effect economic growth and the generation of exceptional developments, as well as the maintenance of the military and infrastructure. Finally the infrastructure line details the quality of the road network, the coverage of the rail network, and the quality of the ports, again split into economic regions and with a listing of maintenance costs. Infrastructure will obviously have an effect on growth, trade and war-making.
Note you can skimp or lower any of the maintenance costs if you want to give you more money to play with in other areas, and the quality might not degrade, or only degrade slowly to the other level you'll just have to find out
Example of the KoSFN
...
*Major Internal Region/Description/Value
Baltic Region/Raw Materials Extraction and some commercial centres/£460
North Sea Coast/Base of Merchant and Fishing fleet, some extraction/£150
...
Demographics
Pop/Working/GR/Subregions: 7.2m/2.4m/1.0%/1.3+5.9
Core Identity/Minorities: Protestant Swedes/Protestant Finns and Norwegians
SoL/LE/LI/EI/II/Rough UR/£Overhead: Poor/40yrs/0.99/0.4/5%/£10
Technical Ed/Higher Ed: Very small but adequate/Very small but excellent
Road/Rail/Port/£Main:Very Poor,Okay/None,Poor/Great,Very Good/£10
Now to finish off the stats!
Here is the most recent interation of the map:
Spoiler :
And a pdf of the current version of the timeline is attached to this post (warning 40k words!), note some small changes to that timeline may occur, and the last few years are a bit sparse. The latter is so that I can retcon political figures and changes players bring in at the start of the NES so that they don't just appear de novo in a summary of the TL and NES
.And nations people have already expressed an interest in:
The Kingdom of Sweden-Finland-Norway - Dachs
Californian Republic - JosefStalinator
Republic of Texas - Azale
New England Republic - Masada (maybe?)
Now accepting applications for states via PM or AIM (Disenfrancised), and I am not the slightest bit interested in your 'past achievements', I wish to know what you want to do in the future with this nation/rebellion/whatever. A short paragraph will suffice of course, you can apply for multiple nations, and incoherent writing will be frowned upon.
NOTES:
1] If anyone wants to play Greater Peru or Wanciyate can you please speak up now so I know if I should make long stats for them.
2] The Omani Sultanate is not playable as of the start, it just needs a colour to show its distant holdings.
3] I could be convinced to make New Granada, Morocco, or Hellas playable, but it will take a considerable amount of persuation.
4] The nations that major or minor now may not be that way forever, if you don't spot any you like right now I urge checking back after a few updates to see whats happened
.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
Hey, you only gave me 24 hours! Sheesh. Okay, I'd better get to commenting, then:
These rules are exponentially better than the DisNES3 list monstrosity. Congratulations.
Okay, next section. Before I start I should note that your links back to previous posts are broken (they all link to the research post): you need to change the post number in addition to the post count.
...and we're done. Will read timeline and apply in the next day or so, of course; any chance we could get a 1-paragraph summary for the big picture?
Been doing too much evolutionary biology?
Can you give an example? Are we just talking regions?
So is research capacity actually quantified like that, just not in the stats?
Will you be sending PMs to everyone every turn with this stuff, or will we have to ask first?
A few long updates, I assume.
So this line should be secret as well?
These rules are exponentially better than the DisNES3 list monstrosity. Congratulations.
Okay, next section. Before I start I should note that your links back to previous posts are broken (they all link to the research post): you need to change the post number in addition to the post count.
This is per year, not per update, right?
One of these two is missing from your sample stats...
I would assume that these map directly to Infrastructure Maintenance and Social Maintenance, but the numbers don't seem to match up. Where are the other £20 of infrastructure and the other £5 of social spending, and for that matter the other £31 of military maintenance? And I'm not sure where funding for the espionage comes from--it doesn't seem to come from policies, as that funding is already used up...
...and we're done. Will read timeline and apply in the next day or so, of course; any chance we could get a 1-paragraph summary for the big picture?
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Been doing too much evolutionary biology?
Does half a PhD count (well its started on Evo-bio at least)? It makes perfect sense, and culture is so overused.
Well in classical times you'd have a Greek Clade, Etruscan Clade, Middle-Eastern Clade, Vedic Clade et al.
Something like that, I'm delberately keeping vague to make it hard to rely on future developments - just like real life!
You'll have to ask, unless its massively important in which I'll probably send some information.
da
No, the reputation is obviously publically known, and if you do have a proper secret service people will know its name - Mossad, CIA etc.
Gah, yeah though ovbiously you won't see each years growth, oops (won't be a problem in the main game as the output is automated from a spreadsheet), the examples stats for each section were made seperately, and are certainly not the final stats for the KoSDN
.Basically Napoleon tried a different strat in Russia and got lucky enough to score a political victory over Russia, but then rushed back to Spain where he got very unlucky and got defeated and captured, leading to the East German states rising in revolt. Long story short the French manage to hold onto most of their gains but French supremacy is apparent broken, Brits make piece for Spains freedom and an ending of the continental system. The freed up troops and political will does rather meaner things to the US in the 1812 war, a not totaly screwed spain manages to hold onto most of its empire. Stuff happens, europe seethes, settlers march west, and in 1842 we have the Four Years war of (Britain, Brazil, NER) vs (US, Imperial Federacion (Spanish)) vs (France, Poland, Meiningen Pact of German States) vs (Prussia, Austria), pretty much everyone looses something important (except maybe brazil), and we get the post war world of the Triple Alliance of France-Poland-Reactionary Germans dominating Europe, and everythign else orbiting this diplomatic sun. Note the British Empire whilst bigger than OTL at this point its somewhat poorer due to high tariffs in europe, more areas to patrol, and attempts at social justice at home.
Gelion
Retired Captain
I love Symphonies style, but I wish you used another version of this map. The one with calmer seas
I love Symphonies style, but I wish you used another version of this map. The one with calmer seas
Here's a version without the glow. Let me know which map you guys prefer.
Spoiler No Glow :
EDIT: Ignore the edges of the map.
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,165
And it also looks as ugly as sin.
Ninja Dude
Sorry, I wasn't listening...
I personally thought it looked better.
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,165
Hey, I'm just stating my opinion -- that being that I simply won't join an NES with the glow-map because it hurts my eyes, and this being a hobby as is so often pointed out to me, I don't want to destroy my eyesight in its pursuit. Though it's really more the black land than the glow.
