Nuclear bombs vs missiles

[Maktaka]

Subs are not hidden when on coast tiles, only ocean tiles. If you were that close to the city, you were probably on the coast tiles, which revealed your sub. If you're going to position your subs for first-strike capabilities, keep them well away from enemy cities and ship patrol paths. Those nuclear missiles have a range of 8, so there's really no need to get any closer than that.

Something to keep in mind with bombs vs missiles: bombs damage all units in the blast radius, but missiles destroy all units in the blast radius (2 tile radius from impact point for both though). If you need to take out units around the city, use a missile.

 

[hardcore_gamer]

Its true Missile Cruisers can carry nukes, and they are not vulnerable to destroyers (destroyer combat bonus is only vs submarines).

Which is why the only real advantage subs hold is that they are suppose to be visible only to destroyers and other subs. If they can be seen and attacked by any naval vessel then they are fairly useless.

 

[the oob]

Well I ended up just winning the space race without doing any nuking. By the time I had finished the Manhatten Project I was so close to winning that I just built the parts instead.

A few tips for anyone trying the space race:

1) Burn all your great people for golden ages to speed production
2) Sell useless buildings and even units for gold to buy spaceship factories, nuclear plants, etc. (also saves on maintenance for even more gold). Once you have all the tech you need science buildings are included in this.
3) Prioritize buying production buildings in the bottleneck city (ie. the city that will be the last to finish it's part)
4) (multiplayer only) Don't add parts to the spaceship until they're all complete, otherwise your opponents will know your progress.
5) You may want to build extra railroads so that parts can more quickly get to the capital. Remember to factor in transit time when deciding which city will build which part.
6) Spaceship factories can be built while you're waiting for the Apollo Project.
7) You need a factory to build a spaceship factory. If coal is limited, you could potentially build/buy a factory, then a spaceship factory, then sell the factory so that you can build one elsewhere.

I ended up finishing all my parts on the same turn, except for one in the capital, but there was no single bottleneck as one of the parts needed that extra turn to make it to the capital anyway.

Edit: I've made a thread for space race tips which can be found here.

 

[Liborio]

I just wanted to point out that nuclear subs are not as stealthy as you think. In one instance, the sub was attacked by city when it drifted within its 2 hex combat radius - moreover other AI frigates saw it and attacked as well. That enemy was backward and did not have a single destroyer. So at first I thought a city could see a sub if it entered the 2 hex combat radius.

If that was not bad enough, yesterday a frigate attacked my nuclear sub and it was not within the 2 hex combat radius of a city, but simply one hex beyond cultural borders. My sub had attacked it in the previous turn, so I don't know if that had anything to do with it.

Because of this, when I want to store the nukes for a while I put the sub deep under the polar ice cap.

I did the same thing as you, hid my sub under the polar ice cap within striking distance of Japan's capital, declared war and forgot to fire the nuclear missile and the next turn my sub was sunk by 2 guided missiles.

I'm pretty sure there were no destroyers around and the sub was at least some 4 hexes away from their borders. Beats me on how they spotted it.

 

[CivFart]

They spotted it because there was a destroyer hidden in the fog of war. The destroyer can see further than other units, it was probably hidden in the fog.

 

[hardcore_gamer]

They spotted it because there was a destroyer hidden in the fog of war. The destroyer can see further than other units, it was probably hidden in the fog.

Perhaps, but until someone can actually confirm that the AI can't see your subs I for one am assuming that it is an AI exploit/cheat.

Its not like the AI being able to see things that the player can't see is anything new to the Civ franchise. In fact I think Tv tropes even has an entire section of the site dedicated purely to Civ examples of AI cheating.

EDIT: Yea, here it is: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheComputerIsACheatingBastard

Civ has its own folder lower on the page.

 

[GenericPlayer]

Maybe its like Maktaka said, Subs are only invisible in Ocean tiles, but not coastal tiles. I can't find documentation that says that. The manual says about nuclear submarines:

Special Abilities: Is invisible to other units, can see other submarines, can carry up to two missile units, may enter ice tiles, receives a +50%.combat bonus against submarines, and performs ranged attacks.

No mention of coastal vs ocean tiles. Same thing in civlopedia. And are ice caps coastal or ocean waters?

 

[BomberEscort]

See this thread for my investigation about Submarines in ciV

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=399132

 

[atteSmythe]

No mention of coastal vs ocean tiles. Same thing in civlopedia. And are ice caps coastal or ocean waters?

Funny thing - ice caps aren't water. You can tell this, because pockets of coast that are penned in by ice actually become freshwater lakes.

 

[Abraxis]

Wait, so an intercepted nuke will detonate when destroyed?

I was under the impression only the detonator could activate a nuclear warhead, and hitting one with a missile or any other countermeasure would just destroy the detonator, rendering the warhead useless.

 

[hardcore_gamer]

Wait, so an intercepted nuke will detonate when destroyed?

I was under the impression only the detonator could activate a nuclear warhead, and hitting one with a missile or any other countermeasure would just destroy the detonator, rendering the warhead useless.

This is the case in reality.

No really, the idea of nukes exploding in midair is just stupid beyond belief.

And probably not very fun in gameplay terms.

 

[Sonereal]

Nuclear missiles are great for just decimating CoDs and cities. Atomic bombs are great for clearing the beaches in anticipation of a beach landing.

 

[hardcore_gamer]

Nuclear missiles are great for just decimating CoDs and cities. Atomic bombs are great for clearing the beaches in anticipation of a beach landing.

Speaking of which, does the AI care about other AI's being nuked? In Civ 4 nuking a popular AI player too many times typically meant war with the world.

 

[migkillertwo]

Can someone explain to me the advantage of using nuclear missiles over bombs? Bombs are much cheaper, the only advantage I can see for missiles is that they can go on nuclear subs which are less detectable.

Also, can nukes be intercepted, and are missiles less vulnerable to interception? I'm in a space race with India in my current game, they've just built a component and I'm still working on Apollo. They only have 3 non-puppet cities... I think you can see what my plan is

I've never seen any of my atomic bombs be intercepted, and i've used quite a few of them.

That said, teh advantage of a nuclear missile is that it guarantees that whatever units are caught in its blast radius will be outright destroyed. This is not so with atom bombs. Nuclear missiles can also destroy cities, but destroying a city requires more than 2 missiles so it's not worth it.

 

[BomberEscort]

Some facts about Atomic Bombers and Nuclear Missiles:

The missile does more damage. It is a level 2 nuclear weapon per the XML (Atomic Bomb is a level 1 weapon). Here are the stats for each:

Atomic Bomb
Cost: 850
Range: 10
Nuke Damage Level: 1

Nuclear Missile
Cost: 1200
Range: 8
Nuke Damage Level: 2

Difference between Nuke Damage Levels
NUKE_FALLOUT_PROB = 50
NUKE_UNIT_DAMAGE_BASE = 3
NUKE_UNIT_DAMAGE_RAND_1 = 4
NUKE_UNIT_DAMAGE_RAND_2 = 4
NUKE_NON_COMBAT_DEATH_THRESHOLD = 6
NUKE_LEVEL1_POPULATION_DEATH_BASE = 30
NUKE_LEVEL1_POPULATION_DEATH_RAND_1 = 20
NUKE_LEVEL1_POPULATION_DEATH_RAND_2 = 20
NUKE_LEVEL2_POPULATION_DEATH_BASE = 60
NUKE_LEVEL2_POPULATION_DEATH_RAND_1 = 10
NUKE_LEVEL2_POPULATION_DEATH_RAND_2 = 10
NUKE_LEVEL2_ELIM_POPULATION_THRESHOLD = 5
NUKE_CITY_HIT_POINT_DAMAGE = 50
NUKE_BLAST_RADIUS = 2

Conclusions

• Nuclear Missiles use two uranium not one.
• Nuclear Missiles have two less range than an Atomic Bomb
• Nuclear Missiles kill twice the population on average as an Atomic Bomb
• Nuclear Missiles destroy cities with a population of five or smaller (excluding Capitals and City-States which are reduced to one citizen)
• Atomic Bombs cannot destroy cities
• All Nukes have a blast radius of two
• If you want to attack units, use an Atomic Bomb since damage to units is the same as the Nuclear Missile.
• Use the Nuclear Missile for killing population or destroying cities.
• For both weapons, the target tile and surrounding tiles take the same damage. No extra damage to the target tile.
• Atomic Bomber can be intercepted in flight, Nuclear Missile cannot.

 

[hardcore_gamer]

[*] If you want to attack units, use an Atomic Bomb since damage to units is the same as the Nuclear Missile.

No, bombs often only damage units while missiles always destroy them. The wiki even says so.

 

[Sonereal]

No, bombs often only damage units while missiles always destroy them. The wiki even says so.

The missile doesn't. There was one single survivor of a nuclear blast in my game.

 

[bryanw1995]

According to 2KGreg the AI is suppose to built more (or any, since the AI rarely appears to built any aircraft right now) aircraft once the upcoming patch is released.

that is mostly true, but any civ with a UU will spam the everlivin' crap out of it. I've seen the US with 7-8 bombers in a 9 city empire. fortunately, modern armor and mech inf on rugged terrain don't sustain much damage from any artillery up to and including stealth bombers.

speaking of which, has anybody seen if they are planning to allow upgrades to stealth bombers or if that is just a design element?

 

[bryanw1995]

Either this is a:

1. A bug.
2. An AI cheat.
3. A poor design decision.

The whole point of subs is that the enemy isn't suppose to see them if he doesn't have any destroyers or subs of his own. If he can just see subs with any kind of ships, then why bother build any subs? They aren't the only vessel that can carry nukes.

I accidentally tried to run over an enemy sub the other day with a battleship. that revealed the sub, which I subsequently pummeled into oblivion.

 

[DrakenKin]

Conclusions

• Nuclear Missiles use two uranium not one.
• Nuclear Missiles have two less range than an Atomic Bomb
• Nuclear Missiles kill twice the population on average as an Atomic Bomb
• Nuclear Missiles destroy cities with a population of five or smaller (excluding Capitals and City-States which are reduced to one citizen)
• Atomic Bombs cannot destroy cities
• All Nukes have a blast radius of two
• If you want to attack units, use an Atomic Bomb since damage to units is the same as the Nuclear Missile.
• Use the Nuclear Missile for killing population or destroying cities.
• For both weapons, the target tile and surrounding tiles take the same damage. No extra damage to the target tile.
• Atomic Bomber can be intercepted in flight, Nuclear Missile cannot.

One more thing :

* Bombs can only be loaded on carriers, while missiles can only go on missile cruisers.