October 2020 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

[Earl Grey - hot]

• Spy missions can no longer be performed in cities of a player you have an Alliance with.

This is incredibly disappointing and frustrating. As @acluewithout said there is plenty of history of allies spying on each other, and currently this is one of the few subtle endgame mini-games that lets you thwart others from winning without having to nuke them (literally) or nuke a long-standing friendship/alliance by declaring (non-nuclear) war for the sake of distracting them from victory. I would much prefer they institute a harsher penalties for being caught spying on your allies - something like you gain no further alliance points until it is up for renewal (also pleeeease let us renew alliances before they expire) or even get dropped down a tier. Plus a harsher relationship penalty from the aggrieved party.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Do I need to buy GS and other NFP packs before playing Pirates?

 

[leandrombraz]

And the spying on alliance thing is just something nobody asked for or wanted.

It's common to see people complaining about allies spying on them, at least on the Steam Forums and Reddit. A lot of people has this notion that allies should be 100% cooperative and never do anything against each other.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

Do I need to buy GS and other NFP packs before playing Pirates?

Nope. It's a free update for everyone.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ Does it also comes with modding assets like Red Death scenario?

 

[8housesofelixir]

Spy missions can no longer be performed in cities of a player you have an Alliance with.

If you are playing a smaller than standard map with 6 or less than 6 players, then you can maintain Alliance with everyone which effectively makes all the Spies useless.

I cannot imagine how the devs didn't think of this.

 

[marius_kaparius]

If you want to avoid declaration of war but still be able to spy you still have the option of Friendship right?

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

It's common to see people complaining about allies spying on them, at least on the Steam Forums and Reddit. A lot of people has this notion that allies should be 100% cooperative and never do anything against each other.

Wow, you weren't kidding. Reddit is in love with this change.

 

[HiRezAudio]

My first thought was 'is that all?' Then I remembered it was the free update month.
Second thoughts?
1 - [Ethiopia Pack] Re-order Governor panel to show Secret Society governors first.
It would be nice if there was a way to hide all SS Governors once you have joined one.

 

[bengalryan9]

Spy missions can no longer be performed in cities of a player you have an Alliance with.

This apparently isn't going over too well but I don't think I mind it.

The problem up to this point is that there's basically no penalty for spying on your allies - it won't cause the alliance to break and 9 times out of 10 they'll go right back to declaring friendship and being your ally at the first chance they get even if you're caught. I think this gives you something else to think about and might lead to some interesting decisions. It also gives you another way to defend yourself from being targeted.

Is this a perfect solution? No. I'd like to see the return of diplomat units that you can send to your allies. Maybe even give them special ally-based missions - getting them to vote for you at World Congress, stealing favor, etc.

 

[Ticio]

"Spy missions can no longer be performed in cities of a player you have an Alliance with."

Agreed, I normally use Alliances as a way to improve myself... and knowing that my ally is getting strong bonuses too I tend to send spies to make sure he is not getting more benefits that I am.
After all, it is what happen always... Even nowadays is a very usual thing Cof cof... Unite States cof cof....
I'm totally on board of adding big maluses if you are discovered spying on allies, but not forbidding it (200 grievances, for example).

 

[8housesofelixir]

If you want to avoid declaration of war but still be able to spy you still have the option of Friendship right?

If anyone choose to war with a former Ally it will instantly trigger a Betrayal Emergency. There is nothing in Friendship that can prevent a war when expired.

Alliance also give you a stable +20 relationship, enough to counter most of the negative relationship modifiers.

 

[whyidie]

• [Gathering Storm] Rock Bands can no longer play on pillaged buildings and districts.

• Spy missions can no longer be performed in cities of a player you have an Alliance with.

Should have made this an achievement before changing. Pillage an allies district then send a rock band there. Talk about insult to injury...to an "ally".

• Reduce Llanero adjacent strength to +2 (was +4).

Was fun while it lasted! As a predominantly shuffle player always nice to get the Gran Columbia draw! Byzantium and Gaul are nuts too, hope they don't get too neutered. With so many Civs, hope this leaves room to have some that are over the top.


And nice to see them letting the AI flex more. After a run of games at deity moved back down to prince to go wonder crazy and was pleasantly surprised at how much AI has improved.

 

[Piranga]

• Recruit Partisans mission now pillages the Neighborhood district (so that it cannot be spammed), and spawns only anti-cavalry units (weaker units than previously).

So the solution to make "recruited partisans" in your land less annoying is to just pillage the neighborhood as well. So you're safer while its pillaged, but not getting its benefits either. Whats the point?...might as well not build it.


Also wish Gran Columbia had the +1 generic mp removed instead of the +1 mp from their generals.

 

[8housesofelixir]

It would be nice if there was a way to hide all SS Governors once you have joined one.

The game already does that: Once you joined a SS then all the other SS governors will disappear. If they are still there it is probably a bug.

 

[Earl Grey - hot]

If you are playing a smaller than standard map with 6 or less than 6 players, then you can maintain Alliance with everyone which effectively makes all the Spies useless.

I cannot imagine how the devs didn't think of this.

Woof. Especially strange next to the change in "Partisans" mission where pillaging the district is theoretically supposed to prevent spamming ... but the [Alliance=no spying] change makes it increasingly likely that in games with more than six players one or two players become targeted repeatedly. So you could have the above scenario where player is allied with all other players (five or less) and spying is literally banned, or a scenario where there are more players than you have alliance slots for so by default you and your allies are pushed towards targeting those outside the alliance(s).

Not that every game winds up with a pseudo-NATO/Warsaw Pact group, but the majority of my games where I can maintain alliances I have at least one if not two mutual allies.

*Edited for spelling

 

[sonicmyst]

So now if I am allied with another civ which leads in Science or Culture victory I can no longer disrupt their spaceports / industrial zones or steal artworks from theatre squares and will be forced to break the alliance and get a betrayal emergency against me?

Ohhh this would be very difficult.

 

[Tuvok694]

So say I want to play the Pirates scenario only one player . . . what to do?

I would like to know that as well. Maybe it's "multiplayer only" after all? Then I'm not interested.

 

[Datgingah]

I think between the allies can’t spy and the changes to recruit partisans, there’s actually more merit to building neighborhoods now - at least in culture/diplo/peaceful science games.

tho I don’t totally agree with alliances not being able to spy on each other, maybe they could just restrict available missions? As others have mentioned it doesn’t make total gameplay sense. At the very least they need to have something to do in major civs, so the diplomat option others have mentioned (maybe offering +0.5 alliance points/turn and +2 diplo favor/turn).

the city state mission and defense just ain’t enough for them.

 

[King of Prussia]

Im not sure how to feel on the cant spy on allies thing. On one hand allies do spy on each other, and it offers more than 1 way to slow down someone. OTOH, allying someone to keep them from ever attacking you, then destroying them with your spies isn't hard to do and pretty cheap. Everybody allying each other, or staying allies until the end of the game thwarting the AIs chance at winning is not very logical either, even if its good for roleplay. Late game should be more like a few key players with everyone else who isn't competitive backing another player.(here is where diplomacy can matter) The key players shouldn't like each other.

Perhaps rather than banning it outright, they make doing it a lot riskier. Perhaps Higher catch/fail chance. Maybe something else like if caught, you immediately break/prevent renewal of the alliance and possibly cause a betrayal emergency.


Edit, i not against GC being toned down, but idk if they needed ALL of those changes. 1 or 2 of them would be fine.

I am looking forward to the other changes and the scenario.