Over the Reich - Prof. Garfield vs. JPetroski

[JPetroski]

Changelog: Minor fix to formations and changed experten kill event so that the treasury is never brought below 0 (killed someone, then captured Paris, and found that I 'plundered' around negative 300 gold.)

I had to use cheat menu again to give the Germans 500 gold. I'm thinking that we need to tweak the munitions mechanism of both parties so that they can't use munitions if they have less than 500 gold. Ideally we'd also add something in where no side can rush build anything with less than 500 either, though I don't know if that is possible or not. In any event, if we have a "floor" of 500 we could simply ensure that both sides always have at least that.

I'm also thinking we might want to tweak the Battle of the Atlantic mechanism a bit to try and cut down on Allied fuel. You had mentioned that they need a maximum amount, but maybe we just need a scaling penalty for losing a freighter. Here's what I was thinking:

At the start of the German turn we count how many freighters the Allies have, and how much gold/fuel the Allies have. Let's call it 10 and 10,000 in this example for ease of math.

Since the Allies possess 10 freighters, sinking each one in a turn would remove 10% of their fuel, or 1,000 fuel.

If the Allies started with 10 freighters and 5,000 gold, each one sunk would take 500 fuel.

If the Allies started with 5 freighters and 1,000 gold, each one lost would cost the Allies 20% or 200 fuel and so on.

This would give the Germans more incentive to focus on the Battle of the Atlantic throughout the game, and would also reduce the amount of fuel available to the Allies, and since it scales, it might be effective throughout the game. Further, it would reward sustained effort by the Germans, as the more they can sink/the less the Allies have available, the greater damage done.

I don't think this would be create an imbalance given that the freighters are fairly robust and can be quite difficult to kill on one turn.

I didn't mean to suggest getting rid of them, just that they might not see much use, and maybe should be tweaked a little.

If we wanted to strive for each unit to be unique, we might have a chance that rounds will 'miss' the targets due to their speed? Maybe 20%, 40%, 60% for the A-20, B-26, and A-26 respectively?

I never really attacked the radar, since I thought the advantage would be relatively small. I usually have to penetrate so far into Germany to do something, that surprise never seemed all that plausible anyway. I might have liked to target radar stations near Hamburg/Denmark, but that is out of range of the tactical bombers anyway.

Surprise is unlikely but vectoring is the real use of radar as every space I don't waste searching is potentially another one I can attack, and i can set up attacks much better. I don't think it made much difference overall, but it was probably a missed opportunity that helped me. I invested in radar early in the game and was glad to do so.

The cost of fighters is fine from my perspective. I don't think it is too high, but it is a bit hard to tell if it is too low. If the Allies attack without escorts, it is either because they are impatient or because the escorts just don't have the range to be useful.

At the moment, my 'strategy' is basically saturating your air defences. The Mustangs, as far as I can tell, just make it harder to kill stuff, so reducing the number of bombers required for 'saturation,' and requiring you to have flak in the airbases that you use. At their current price, this seems a reasonable use. Maybe I could mass enough to kill the flak in an airfield, but thus far it hasn't seemed worth the trouble.

I'm going to have to wait to see what I think when the excel data is available, but my family fell quite ill over the holidays too and I made no progress on anything of value. I do think the planned 109 addition might compel more prop fighter to prop fighter combat in the future versions where we might see Mustangs tangle more. In any event, they are fine interceptors and are having the effect of making me carefully weigh my attacks.

However, I just got an idea that should be very easy to implement, and would solve these problems: Allow 15th Airforce production at airbases in England, and use an on-production event to simply teleport them to Italy when they are produced. Then, their price can be tweaked if they're too powerful, and we don't have to worry about lightning re-deployment of bombers to and from England.

I like this idea and agree that we should implement it. We may need to bump up the price as you suggested, if every airfield in England could theoretically produce them.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I like this idea and agree that we should implement it. We may need to bump up the price as you suggested, if every airfield in England could theoretically produce them.

Done. Newly produced 15th Airforce and Red Tails are teleported to the Italian Front, and have all movement expended for the turn they are produced. They are also set to NONE, so that the player doesn't have to worry about accidentally overproducing and then having stuff disbanded. It occurs to me now that that means there is no reason to re-home the Red Tails, so I may have to make a change.

I killed the German Task Force. I think it only took 2 Tempests, which seems like too few units. Task forces should be vulnerable to air power, but not that vulnerable in my opinion.

If we wanted to strive for each unit to be unique, we might have a chance that rounds will 'miss' the targets due to their speed? Maybe 20%, 40%, 60% for the A-20, B-26, and A-26 respectively?

Maybe just make it so they are like Jabo, and don't use up movement points when attacking, just the payload. Then, they could attack and run away. At the moment, the Tempests are quite useful in being able to strike at a target 10-12 squares from an airbase and then immediately return. I'm almost inclined to think that they are too good at this, and that maybe they should use some movement points when bombing.

I've suddenly had a thought that maybe we should delete enemy airbases upon capture. That would make establishing new airbases something more urgent for the Allies, and prevent things like operating an airfield on the continent without capturing a city, and would also prevent establishing fighter cover by capturing German airbases on islands.

 

[JPetroski]

Please let me know when the events are available as I want to go through this thread and make some updates that we've discussed (such as checking for the correct tiles for certain strategic bombing attacks, etc.)

 

[JPetroski]

I've suddenly had a thought that maybe we should delete enemy airbases upon capture. That would make establishing new airbases something more urgent for the Allies, and prevent things like operating an airfield on the continent without capturing a city, and would also prevent establishing fighter cover by capturing German airbases on islands.

This might be a decent idea for an ETO scenario like this. We should probably implement it.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

You can have the events now.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Turn 86. The Italian airforce event seems to be working (I had only tested it using 'cheat' to make a unit).

 

[JPetroski]

So I have a confession to make - I've been going through the turns from the past saves and got up to turn 40 for the Allies. When I loaded this last save from you, I noticed that I only have 17 aircraft(!!!), so I figured there wouldn't be any harm or advantage I could possibly hope to gain by pressing F2 and just taking a look at what your totals are now on turn 86. I'm probably just going to do this going forward each turn as it will be easier to compile the data turn by turn than doing everything at the end. I trust you see I have no trick up my sleeve that could possibly work by doing this and won't take offense

So.... On turn 86:

The Allies have 387 total aircraft to the Germans 17*
The Allies have 114 day and 6 night fighters compared to the Germans 17
The Allies have a total industry score (1 point per improvement not counting urban) 158 to the Germans 47
The German civilian population has been reduced to 16 urban improvements
The maximum fuel that Germany can reasonably produce each turn is 1344, but of course they also have costs, so the must surplus they can gain is 547&
The maximum science rate that Germany can reasonably produce each turn is now 14 turns per tech (without running a fuel deficit).&

*This doesn't count spy planes, maritime aircraft, or window for either player
&Note that both of the maximum rates are simply given via the slider - I am not manually adjusting every specialist every turn to get "perfect data" as this is close enough

There are still 39 turns to go in the scenario.
You have already achieved a stalemate per the objectives that you have captured.
You need to capture 4 more objectives to achieve a marginal victory.
You would need to capture 24 total objectives (including the 4 above) to achieve a decisive victory.
You have captured 13 cities in total, but none are in Germany. When you capture the first German city, the Russian Front will open.
Not knowing exactly where your armies are, I'm estimating they're probably about 27-30 tiles away from the closest German city. Let's be cautious, and say you might effectively move 6 spaces each turn instead of the full 8 - you'll reach the German city in 5 turns and achieve a marginal victory at that time.
That will leave you about 34 turns to mop up the remaining cities, while having the Russians help you.

I always feel a little weird at these points because I don't want to rob you of anything and if you're having fun I'll keep playing - but you've clearly trounced me. There is no way I can stop you with the forces available at hand. What do you want to do? Do you think there is a value from a testing perspective to continue going? I'm not 100% sure that there is.

 

[JPetroski]

The events are available. I've done everything I can do on them (I think). I think I've captured everything else that we discussed in my latest post in the creation thread, but please double check it.

DONE
-Increased cost of 15th AF to 50
-Increased cost of Red Tails to 100
-Increased defense of Task Forces 30 to 50
-Increased defenses of critical target to 50
-Increased cost of pathfinders given they now produce 10 window. Increased from 45 to 60
-Deleted reference to neutral territory unit art being from Tootall's Napoleon since I changed the graphic
-Change name of Atlantic Wall to Adolf Hitler and change the improvement icons
-Confirmed last urban target near Linz destroyed terrain when it was killed
-Removed Prague and Aarhus from German city list
-Allowed Ju88G and He219 to fire rockets on day map if transfered there via Wilde Sau
-I'm allowing German nightfighters to be produced on any map. They will be additional heavy fighters that aren't as good as true bomber destroyers because they lose all MP when they fire a rocket yet also draw defensive fire from bombers. Since they're going to be allowed on all maps via Wilde Sau, why not simply allow them to be built on all maps as well.
-I have given all named Aces the power to fire A2A rockets. When added, the generic Experten will lack this.
-Differentiated the named Experten:
-Egon Mayer fires 2x rockets barrage
-H.W. Schnaufer will escape into the night; the only Experten who can
-Priller does not have a fuel penalty for any attacks and now moves 50 spaces each turn, can attack 5x
-Graf has 25 defense now and can land on carriers as he files a 109 - Now arrives at point threshold vs. Schweinfurt - DID NOT REMOVE schweinfurt event--figure you will get rid of that eventually.
-Galland is a jet and the won't have a MP deduction for rockets. Fuel cost half that of regular 262 - point threshold increased for his arrival
-Added generic Experten unit, art, and events - they are weaker than the named aces on defense and can't carry rockets, but they're able to intercept. They also have a shorter reaction distance (3 squares compared to 4). The Germans can currently earn up to 10 of them throughout the scenario.
-Medium Bombers now don't use any MP with their payload, so they can attack targets and escape.
-Confirmed that Fw190A8 will draw defensive fire from 15th AF Bombers
-Fixed issue where Fw190F wasn't drawing defensive reaction. It and the Do335 now are classified as German heavy fighters and can be attacked by defenders
-Reduced P-51D reaction damage against jets to {{.2, 5}}, 332nd Fighter Group still left at {{.2, 10}} to further differentiate it - it is now the best jet killer

PROBLEMS
-I started to remove the railtrack from urban terrain but then realized that there is a larger problem in that smaller cities will develop urban terrain when they grow, and they might develop this on railtrack. Is this really so much of a problem that it requires a fix or can we live with it? You seem to have done well enough even with a few harder targets. Also, perhaps there is a lua alternative if we really can't live with it? I think we can live with it though.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

So I have a confession to make - I've been going through the turns from the past saves and got up to turn 40 for the Allies. When I loaded this last save from you, I noticed that I only have 17 aircraft(!!!), so I figured there wouldn't be any harm or advantage I could possibly hope to gain by pressing F2 and just taking a look at what your totals are now on turn 86. I'm probaDID NOT REMOVE schweinfurt event--figure you will get rid of that eventually.bly just going to do this going forward each turn as it will be easier to compile the data turn by turn than doing everything at the end. I trust you see I have no trick up my sleeve that could possibly work by doing this and won't take offense

I don't mind.

I always feel a little weird at these points because I don't want to rob you of anything and if you're having fun I'll keep playing - but you've clearly trounced me. There is no way I can stop you with the forces available at hand. What do you want to do? Do you think there is a value from a testing perspective to continue going? I'm not 100% sure that there is.

I don't mind stopping. The turns are long enough that it is almost a chore to play at th-Confirmed last urban target near Linz destroyed terrain when it was killedis point.

At this point, playtesting would mostly be a question of how quickly the Allies can be expected to advance. Not important for this game, but it might be useful to know if, say, turn 90 is 'too late' for an effective invasion. Then again, since I started in the far west, a turn 90 invasion at Calais might be nearly equivalent to what we have. In any case, if we're destroying airbases upon capture, and changing fighter-bombers and tactical bombers, we might not get any more useful data anyway.

I'm curious as to how effective a defensive mix of one or two battle groups, some flak, and some gun batteries would be at halting my progress. The three together might make a formidable defensive barrier that might take some effort, or sacrificed battle groups, to deal with. I don't think it is necessary to have an active game just to try that out. Maybe we want to increase the number of times light flak fires, so that fighter bombers continue to bear risk when attacking.

-Confirmed last urban target near Linz destroyed terrain when it was killed

I think we need to check Vienna, too.

DID NOT REMOVE schweinfurt event--figure you will get rid of that eventually.

Yes, I'll get rid of the special target events (I'll probably just set the start and end window beyond the maximum turns, rather than try to figure out all the code that has to be removed).

PROBLEMS
-I started to remove the railtrack from urban terrain but then realized that there is a larger problem in that smaller cities will develop urban terrain when they grow, and they might develop this on railtrack. Is this really so much of a problem that it requires a fix or can we live with it? You seem to have done well enough even with a few harder targets. Also, perhaps there is a lua alternative if we really can't live with it? I think we can live with it though.

I'm happy to leave it as it is. It doesn't really bother me if some targets are harder to kill than others. We should probably just remind the players of it, so that, for example, the Allied player might want to attack urban targets not on railtracks first, rather than trying to eliminate a city all at once. With battle groups being able to be damaged to 5hp by munitions, the defensive bonus shouldn't matter to much, and might make sense.

I had to use cheat menu again to give the Germans 500 gold. I'm thinking that we need to tweak the munitions mechanism of both parties so that they can't use munitions if they have less than 500 gold. Ideally we'd also add something in where no side can rush build anything with less than 500 either, though I don't know if that is possible or not. In any event, if we have a "floor" of 500 we could simply ensure that both sides always have at least that.

I'm also thinking we might want to tweak the Battle of the Atlantic mechanism a bit to try and cut down on Allied fuel. You had mentioned that they need a maximum amount, but maybe we just need a scaling penalty for losing a freighter. Here's what I was thinking:

At the start of the German turn we count how many freighters the Allies have, and how much gold/fuel the Allies have. Let's call it 10 and 10,000 in this example for ease of math.

Since the Allies possess 10 freighters, sinking each one in a turn would remove 10% of their fuel, or 1,000 fuel.

If the Allies started with 10 freighters and 5,000 gold, each one sunk would take 500 fuel.

If the Allies started with 5 freighters and 1,000 gold, each one lost would cost the Allies 20% or 200 fuel and so on.

This would give the Germans more incentive to focus on the Battle of the Atlantic throughout the game, and would also reduce the amount of fuel available to the Allies, and since it scales, it might be effective throughout the game. Further, it would reward sustained effort by the Germans, as the more they can sink/the less the Allies have available, the greater damage done.

I don't think this would be create an imbalance given that the freighters are fairly robust and can be quite difficult to kill on one turn.

We could give the German player the expected fuel expenditure after Allied production, then take it away after German production. If there is a deficit, then something bad can happen, but we don't have to worry about inconvenient structures being sold off. Same could be done for the Allies. That might be easier than trying to enforce minimum fuel reserves.

Allied convoys are already worth 1200 (300 base+300 per refinery) fuel when delivered to a city with 3 fuel refineries (which was my first goal). I don't know how much value there would be in tying extra fuel losses to convoy sinkings. If the Battle of the Atlantic is won, then the proposed mechanic won't really have an effect anyway.

Maybe attacking refineries should destroy a portion of stored fuel, but then that won't really help the Germans too much.

The Allied fuel buildup might not be such a big deal after all. Re-establishing order in France can get fairly expensive (though, that won't be an issue if we give the Allies Fundamentalism), as can fixing the French rail network. Maybe the Allies just need something to spend it on. Maybe for 500 fuel, a battle group can press backspace and reduce its moveSpent by 1, thereby allowing it to travel faster. Perhaps there should be an upper limit to that, somehow.

-Increased cost of 15th AF to 50
-Increased cost of Red Tails to 100

Based on the experience I had with the 15th AF, I don't think I'd ever pay 500 shields for one. The Red Tails actually make them useful, so I'm not to concerned with a 1000 shield price tag for them.