P666-02 Fix Another Trash Game
- Thread starter Cam_H
- Start date
pigswill
fly (one day)
Fairly straightforward round.
Spoiler :
Looking at the other saves I get that sinking feeling.
I posted my 125 BC save , duh.
BTW in Cam's opening post it reads that the third round and following rounds will be 50 turns.This means we should have played to 375 AD. Nevermind, but we need to agree on the next round.
I posted my 125 BC save , duh.
BTW in Cam's opening post it reads that the third round and following rounds will be 50 turns.This means we should have played to 375 AD. Nevermind, but we need to agree on the next round.
Double post, I'm wondering about teching in general, not just this game.
When you can tech next to CoL/C.S. or maths/construction ... which is the most favored path. I know its very situational, but of for example if there is no pressing need to attack, would the government techs be better in the long run?
Next queston; you can tech CoL/C.S. or maths/commerce. Which will build the better economy in the near future?
Next question; alphabet/literature or CoL/C.S. which for the most science?
I guess I'm asking, in a "neutral" situation, what are peoples preferences.
When you can tech next to CoL/C.S. or maths/construction ... which is the most favored path. I know its very situational, but of for example if there is no pressing need to attack, would the government techs be better in the long run?
Next queston; you can tech CoL/C.S. or maths/commerce. Which will build the better economy in the near future?
Next question; alphabet/literature or CoL/C.S. which for the most science?
I guess I'm asking, in a "neutral" situation, what are peoples preferences.
mice said:
there is no neutral situation
here we are spiritual, meaning we can switch to bureaucracy witout anarchy, meaning it's a good boost
better than markets
in other situations, i go for currency, because of trade routes.
by the way, here is my save.
didn't intend to fight, but JC attacked me...
I'm not saying that I'm right on any of this, but you asked for opinion! 
I'm inclined to echo Cabert in that there are too many variables to say unequivocally one path will be better than another ...
... Compound that with the fact that Civil Service alone at 800
is 200 greater than Mathematics and Construction, and 150 greater than Mathematics and Currency. Add in 350 for Code of Laws, and the ‘Code of Laws > Civil Service’ path is more than a normal technology ‘longer’ for that point of the game.
Personally I try to get Civil Service with a slingshot (usually via a Great Prophet), which can seriously distort my technology path, and when I’m busy getting humiliated in my feeble attempts at Emperor (which I'm just about giving up on!) even getting a timely slingshot is chancy.
I would say in both this game as well as P666-01 that Berlin and Tenochtitlan respectively were set up as such important cities thanks to some excellent resources and a bendy river, and as such Bureaucracy really stands out as an important civic – more so for the extra
than 
in my opinion.
I tend to favour Currency over Construction as it is usual for me to have an Axe rush and find myself financially stretched. A lot of the time the A.I. has got to Feudalism, and I tend to hold back for Maces + Catapults in the next wave rather than persisting with Axes + Catapults versus Longbows. If there is Ivory, then that would change the priority!
I'm inclined to echo Cabert in that there are too many variables to say unequivocally one path will be better than another ...
... Compound that with the fact that Civil Service alone at 800
is 200 greater than Mathematics and Construction, and 150 greater than Mathematics and Currency. Add in 350 for Code of Laws, and the ‘Code of Laws > Civil Service’ path is more than a normal technology ‘longer’ for that point of the game.Personally I try to get Civil Service with a slingshot (usually via a Great Prophet), which can seriously distort my technology path, and when I’m busy getting humiliated in my feeble attempts at Emperor (which I'm just about giving up on!) even getting a timely slingshot is chancy.
I would say in both this game as well as P666-01 that Berlin and Tenochtitlan respectively were set up as such important cities thanks to some excellent resources and a bendy river, and as such Bureaucracy really stands out as an important civic – more so for the extra
than in my opinion.I tend to favour Currency over Construction as it is usual for me to have an Axe rush and find myself financially stretched. A lot of the time the A.I. has got to Feudalism, and I tend to hold back for Maces + Catapults in the next wave rather than persisting with Axes + Catapults versus Longbows. If there is Ivory, then that would change the priority!
armstrong
Prince
Howdy everyone 
I've been awol for a few days - I thought I had posted that, but evidentally I only posted it in my SGOTM.
I'll echo the sentiment that it's entirely situational, and a lot depends on the difficulty level and how good the start is and how the trading situation looks. You can usually trade for Alphabet for Math right away on Emperor, for instance, but not on Monarch.
Generally, I have two paths:
1. Religious route. Build the oracle to grab something, Monarchy > CoL > CS.
2. Secular route. Math > Currency > CoL > CS, with Calendar thrown in as needed.
And then there is the Alphabet > Literature > Drama subpath. If I'm going to build the Great Library, or want to use theatres for happiness, I'll go this route. Otherwise, I'll get Alphabet once I think there will be good trades to make with it.
The value of Currency is highly dependant on how many other civs you can get open borders & trade routes with; +1 commerce/city is nice but not spectacular, but +3 is. And as Cam said, CS depends on how much commerce your capital is generating. With starting gold mines and/or early river cottages, the value of it increases significantly.
The difference between the Secular and Religious route depends heavily on what kind of happiness options you have available. If, for instance, you have access to lots of happiness resources Monarchy isn't as important, while if you don't it can be critical (along with Drama.)
It really depends. My gut instinct is that if you can get CS before Lit and still get the Great Library built CS is better, but otherwise Literature is better. If you can't (or don't want to) build the Great Library I don't think Literature is very valuable initially (you need a functioning GP farm or a 10xp unit for the national wonders to be useful.) The higher the difficult goes up the more value you get from using a GS to lightbulb high-value trading techs like Philosophy, which makes an early GLib more useful.
I've been awol for a few days - I thought I had posted that, but evidentally I only posted it in my SGOTM.mice said:
I'll echo the sentiment that it's entirely situational, and a lot depends on the difficulty level and how good the start is and how the trading situation looks. You can usually trade for Alphabet for Math right away on Emperor, for instance, but not on Monarch.
Generally, I have two paths:
1. Religious route. Build the oracle to grab something, Monarchy > CoL > CS.
2. Secular route. Math > Currency > CoL > CS, with Calendar thrown in as needed.
And then there is the Alphabet > Literature > Drama subpath. If I'm going to build the Great Library, or want to use theatres for happiness, I'll go this route. Otherwise, I'll get Alphabet once I think there will be good trades to make with it.
The value of Currency is highly dependant on how many other civs you can get open borders & trade routes with; +1 commerce/city is nice but not spectacular, but +3 is. And as Cam said, CS depends on how much commerce your capital is generating. With starting gold mines and/or early river cottages, the value of it increases significantly.
The difference between the Secular and Religious route depends heavily on what kind of happiness options you have available. If, for instance, you have access to lots of happiness resources Monarchy isn't as important, while if you don't it can be critical (along with Drama.)
mice said:
It really depends. My gut instinct is that if you can get CS before Lit and still get the Great Library built CS is better, but otherwise Literature is better. If you can't (or don't want to) build the Great Library I don't think Literature is very valuable initially (you need a functioning GP farm or a 10xp unit for the national wonders to be useful.) The higher the difficult goes up the more value you get from using a GS to lightbulb high-value trading techs like Philosophy, which makes an early GLib more useful.
Thanks for the replies guys. I guess as you realize the implications of these tech choices, the decision becomes easier based on the situation. It is a weak area of mine, as it probably is with all people learning the game.
I'm curious armstrong, Why wouldn't you want to build the GL? Do you mean the case where you're just building military like crazy.armstrong said:
armstrong
Prince
mice said:
I think tech decisions around this time in the game are the hardest parts of the game for me - you're juggling so many things (happiness, culture, military, wonders) that there's no easy way to find the best way through. I almost always regret one of my choices: why did I get Literature so early when I'm not ready to build the GLib yet? Why did I get Calendar when I was relying on Stonehenge for culture? Why did I delay CoL now that I need courthouses to fix my economy?
Basically... some other situations I can think of where I've decided not to build it:
1. I'm going for a cultural victory (I don't want more than 1, maybe 2 Great Scientists)
2. Gandhi/Catherine is my neighbor and he looks like s/he'll build it (and I'm okay with declaring war to steal it)
3. I don't think I have a very good chance at getting it due to low production & having rivals that are Industrious/have marble, and I was forced to trade Alphabet to stay competive techwise
4. I'm on an Archipelago map, and Metalcasting/the Colossus is a higher priority.
right armstrong! Good examples of out of reach/unwanted great library rush.
I'll add the following : you may want to finish a few infrastructure buildings before going for the GL (= situation 3, temporarily).
In our game, i didn't want to go for the GL before having a granary (for the health+whipping food) and a forge, so i could have researched another tech before going for litterature, without losing any production turn.
I'll add the following : you may want to finish a few infrastructure buildings before going for the GL (= situation 3, temporarily).
In our game, i didn't want to go for the GL before having a granary (for the health+whipping food) and a forge, so i could have researched another tech before going for litterature, without losing any production turn.
I've done a 'statistical analysis' on the criteria I think are useful indicators on the games submitted to date, and I think that we're going to have a tough time picking out a trash game this round!
Games that are weaker in some areas are stronger in others.
Armstrong ... it's up to you to submit some real rubbish this time!
Games that are weaker in some areas are stronger in others.
Armstrong ... it's up to you to submit some real rubbish this time!
Cam_H said:I've done a 'statistical analysis' on the criteria I think are useful indicators on the games submitted to date, and I think that we're going to have a tough time picking out a trash game this round!
Games that are weaker in some areas are stronger in others.
Armstrong ... it's up to you to submit some real rubbish this time!
i can replay it and give you what you want
Cam_H said:Yes ... well ... what is it that they say ... sometimes it's better to be lucky than good!
It took me a few seconds to work out what went on there, and then ... "Ohhh - that's what he's done!"
Could very well be a trash game, with just one less unit
pigswill
fly (one day)
Re: teching in early middle ages. I tend to go for stuff like CoL and metalcasting coz usually calendar, currency and construction are AI faves making them easily tradeable; if you're able to wait then you can pick up the 3Cs for one tech in simultanous trades.
There certainly ain't clear gaps between games so choosing best or worst isn't easy.
There certainly ain't clear gaps between games so choosing best or worst isn't easy.
pigswill
fly (one day)
I'm thinking that I would be going for war against Mansa at this point. If you cripple/annihilate Mansa AI tech-trading slows dramatically. At the start of the game skirmishers will defeat axes comfortably; later in the game Mansa tends to have better units so the window of opportunity is when you've got cats against skirmishers.
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