Pre-CosmicNES: Shards of an Empire

[Patchy]

I'm not sure about the new system, while it seems to help the combat creativity takes a hit. For example my colonization ship would have been much costlier as I see no way to reduce the stats on ship classes.

Also I was coming up with a nice idea for missile carrying "gunboats" (look as Maddjinn's ES let's play for their awesomeness) but now that's out of the window as nothing smaller than a crusier can carry missiles.

In my opinion as it stands the benefits of the new system do not out weigh the damage it does to our ability to create new ships.

 

[Seon]

Oh yeah.

For instance this makes a massive Magnetic Accelerator Cannon ships such as the Sulis impossible to make.

Also there is no reason why somebody couldn't fit some small missiles onto a frigate in order to act as dedicated anti capital ship unit.

Use of missiles in order to take down fighter crafts are tried and functional technology. Air to air missiles exist after all. Current rule set prevents creation of Interception missiles.

Energy weapon should take up an enormous amount of space. Generators are big, heavy, and messy.

Kinetic guns should take the least. Tanks and autocannons are not that big in terms of spaceships.

I think it would be best to do away with the differences between weapon types and deal with them in case by case manner.

 

[Popcornlord]

In this theoretical system, ships like the Sulis and the Lanshire would be createable through the module system. I should have clarified: Modules can be player-designed, and may be unique to a house. So the Lanshire Class makes use of a special module, buildable only by the Lanshires and their allies, that is cheaper/more efficient than the standard module. The Sulis makes use of a Magnetic Accelerator module, which rips through larger ships, but has poor aim against smaller ones. Modules don't need to be useless in combat: things like stronger hulls or greater range could be provided by a module.

In a sense, modules take over the creativity aspect in the old system. The advantage is that the normal stats are streamlined and regulated.

I do see what you mean about the weapon types however. Looking back, a lot of the rules seem rather arbitrary. But I do want to make sure weapon types are somewhat different, and not just carbon-copies. I'll give it some more thought. At the very least, any ship will be able to use any weapon, and be targeted by any weapon. The last thing I want to do is stifle creativity.

Due to personal stuff, ETA for update 0 will be set back to "sometime this week".

 

[Arrow Gamer]

I don't plan on fighting, but I'll take either system.

 

[Seon]

People who don't plan on fighting tends to get beaten to death with their own manhood.

Just saying.

 

[Popcornlord]

My apologies again for the delay. I think everything should be sorted out now, and I can back to some hardcore updating.

Anyways, kinetics will stay virtually the same. Call it "point defense" if you perfer. If it gets close enough in range, you could target ships larger than a fighter. But unless used by a fighter itself, it will not be easy.

Energy is probably the most generic weapon. Medium range, still deflected by shields. Can be dodged, but the high speed of a laser makes that harder than other weapon types.

Missiles still have the largest range. However, they also tend to be the easiest to counter. Both kinetics and specialized energy can shoot them down, and a good agility can out-manuver them. They also tend to be highly customizable.

Anything not represented here is represented by a module. Modules can also modify a specific type (ex. Anti-fighter missles or hull breaching kinetics). Fighters have one module now, frigates 2. Anything that wouldn't make sense on a fighter would probably take 2 modules anyways.

Is that acceptable to everyone?

 

[Patchy]

Seems just vague enough to work, but I still dislike how missiles are handled. In reality they should be the short range weaponry as they are the slowest, and thus would make more sense to release them in the enemies face where they can't dodge. Kinetic would be more mid range as you would want to minimize the amount you would have to lead the target by. While energy travels at the speed of light making it ideal for long range weaponry.

As long as I get to apply my own logic to the system I should be just fine.

 

[Seon]

In space, speed of the weapon more or less becomes irrelevant because the targets often are moving at speeds exceeding kilometers per second.

Every weapon is fast, faster than imaginable. The importance then is in tracking. Kinetic guns and energy weapons cannot shift its course midflight to account for the change in acceleration of the target. At such long ranges, only missiles have hope of striking the target.

 

[Patchy]

Not really, like you said the targets are moving at speeds exceeding kilometers per second. If they can move that fast what chance does a missile have at catching up to them at all? The only way they could be deployed effectively in that case is at point blank range by fighters.

To extend on your scenario that would make kinetic weapons useless for anything that wasn't flack shots as aiming isn't required there and leading a target going that fast is near impossible. Energy weapons would be the main way of fighting as all you would need is a good tracking system and it would hurl the lasers at the speed of light and hit the ship instantly.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Missiles, in this context, I see more as a combination of torpedoes and unmanned fighters.
They are essentially a large explosive with the fastest extant drive attached to it, with a cheap, stupid, computer designed to guide the missile towards it's target. As such, it's faster than any ship can be...?

 

[Popcornlord]

Roughly what Seon & Thomas said. Speed is relevant in lasers vs. kinetics, but missiles are like mini suicidal fighters. A regular fighter would be very difficult to control at that speed. But if your objective is to explode within damaging distance of another ship, finesse isn't really necessary.

Your arguments for kinetics is mainly why they are mostly effective short range against fighters and missiles.

But yes, feel free to apply your own logic. I'll try to accommodate everyone's ideas with ship design.

 

[Patchy]

Well the problem with that idea is that missiles are by their very nature expendable. Would you waste god knows how much money hooking up every missile with the exact same engines you equip on your ship? Let's not forget that the missiles have to be very numerous as they are easily countered by flack systems, interceptor missiles, and agility.

 

[Seon]

United States spend couple of million dollars per missile.

Small predator missiles, not even the cruise ones.

 

[Popcornlord]

That's actually a fair argument. But building an engine with an explosive attached is far less expensive than the life support, weapons, supplies, etc. required on a larger ship. Even if it took an immense amount of missiles to destroy one battleship, the cost would be worth it.

That said, I wouldn't mind making missiles the most expensive choice. I would just need to find a good way to implement it.

 

[Seon]

Missiles should be the most damaging for its tech level, but also the most expensive and most easy to intercept. In addition, ships equipped with most long-range missiles should be allowed to bombard planetary colonies.

It's a high-risk high reward item for conquerors.

 

[Popcornlord]

Makes sense. Since ship design already allows "high cost, high damage", missile systems will have a significantly higher maximum attack (per tech level). However, maintenance costs are subtracted for using it in a (serious) battle. So if you can back up a missile ship with a strong enough economy, you should be golden.
Alternatively, having missiles just increases regular maintenance costs. But I don't want to penalize players if they aren't actively using it.

Bombarding is separate from the combat system, and goes without saying for dedicated missile ships.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Hey, how's it going? I'm looking forward to this starting.

 

[Seon]

The Red Fleet of Endas is barely holding itself back. I thought this was the update.

I swear, thomas. Do not do this once more, for I am unskilled in various aspects of strategoes, but I know how to make martyrs out of people very very well.

 

[Patchy]

 

[Popcornlord]

Sorry. It's going slowly, but you can expect the update soon. Expect to see a lot of stats pop up on the wiki tomorrow. When the game starts properly, there will be a new thread.