Project SYNTHESIS

[J. pride]

But we don't need any guaranteed core consisting of Baghdad or whatever for that. If you play Arabia and these invasions hinder you from completing your goals? Well then it's up to you to kick those Turks and Mongols back into Central Asia where they belong

No, you got me wrong. I only want the Ai to be able to hold Baghdad but as far as the goal is concerned i want the goal to be so hard that you have to choose between either kicking the Mongols and Seljuks out or retreat to Baghdad and complete the UHV. Only the best players should be able to do both. Without retreating it takes the "fall" theme out of the middle east and makes the goal not so unique.

J. Pride- Good ideas. Keep brainstorming, I'll get to the Arabs soon, right after I finish some last tweaks of the Seljuks

I really do hope that u decide to have to let the Arabs AI keep Baghdad; if it helps you then it is the same reason why many players want a living Byzantine when the Turks spawn. The Byzantine-Turk relation should be like the Arab-Mongol relation. Now that said, it does not have to be hardcoded to happen 100% of the time but most of the time the Arabs should be cornered off in Baghdad. While not a military power any more they should still be commercial and tech leader of the Middle East and it should be the Mongols that finally come and destroy them. In historical terms, this would represent the Arab Golden Age (which lasted till 1258 ad) and make the Middle Eastern diplomacy a whole lot more dynamic and serves as a buffer zone to Byzantine and Egyptian expansion.

 

[The Turk]

1) The problem is that horse archers are outdated when the Safavids spawn by some thousands of years, the exception being the Seljuk Ghulam warrior, which is a HA replacement.

Fair enough point, I'll check out these Qizbalishi Warriors, but frankly something on Horseback would be better, since they were skilled marksmen, I wouldn't say something like a Qizabalishi Cavalry unit (with a rifle), would be out of the question.

2) I could rename them to Ghulam Horse Archers

Why not just name that what they are, Seljuk Horse Archers?

I quite like this. It certainly would help with UHV #3, which is nigh on impossible right now.

Ya, you could call it "Power of Twelver Shi'ism" (or something like that), "Shi'ite religious buildings produce double culture".

Because Isfahan is, in at least 10% of case, not founded until the Safavids are born. That number used to be higher when I added the UHV, when you would still see Rasht like 60% of the time. However if I give the Seljuks a settler there I think we might be able to do something about it.

So basically you are going to fix it, and make Isfahan spawn again? That would be the better option IMO, as I'm surprised Shiraz gets so much publicity in this mod. Also isn't Isfahan a bit to North? IMO the best place to put it would be were Parsa spawns (the capital for the Persians).

The area would become quite crowded, as Nishapur would be one left of Qandahar.

You can just rename Qandahar --> Nishapur, I don't think one tile to the left matter that much, and currently Shiraz should be moved to Hormuz (Ormuz) in the South, to make better use of space in Iran. Not to mention Ormuz was an important trading city and was captured by the Portuguese, which could be used as an excuse to spawn Portuguese soldiers there (along the lines of what Leoreth is doing). But back to my point even if you did remove Qandahar and spawn Nishapur one tile left, just adding sheep to where Qandahar is currently, would neutralize the problem. Not to mention you would gain a very important city for the Seljuks and for Iran in general.

The water looks too artificial. I personally prefer Blue Marble over either of these.

Ok fine, I think these look great, but if you like the water in Blue Marble, why don't you include it then? And what about the HD LH's and better terrain and resource quality? It makes a much better game, and is VERY easy to implement. I've done it for vanilla RFC.


Also I agree with J.Pride the "Arabs" should represent the Ummayad Caliphate (Expansion) and the Abbasid Caliphate (Culture and Scientific Research). IMO the Arabs should just have Mecca for a couple of turns, before its handed over to Damascus, and then to Baghdad at semi-random dates. Frankly though Baghdad was not founded until 760's, so perhaps it keeping its original name until then would be a good idea. But no matter how you do it, I suggest you force the AI to move their capital out of the Hejaz ASAP.

 

[Linkman226]

Fair enough point, I'll check out these Qizbalishi Warriors, but frankly something on Horseback would be better, since they were skilled marksmen, I wouldn't say something like a Qizabalishi Cavalry unit (with a rifle), would be out of the question.

Of course they would because:

1) No one has made the unit art.
2) Ahistorical

Why not just name that what they are, Seljuk Horse Archers?

Boring? lol

Ya, you could call it "Power of Twelver Shi'ism" (or something like that), "Shi'ite religious buildings produce double culture".

Great idea. Double's not that much though. Triple?

So basically you are going to fix it, and make Isfahan spawn again? That would be the better option IMO, as I'm surprised Shiraz gets so much publicity in this mod. Also isn't Isfahan a bit to North? IMO the best place to put it would be were Parsa spawns (the capital for the Persians).

You can just rename Qandahar --> Nishapur, I don't think one tile to the left matter that much, and currently Shiraz should be moved to Hormuz (Ormuz) in the South, to make better use of space in Iran. Not to mention Ormuz was an important trading city and was captured by the Portuguese, which could be used as an excuse to spawn Portuguese soldiers there (along the lines of what Leoreth is doing). But back to my point even if you did remove Qandahar and spawn Nishapur one tile left, just adding sheep to where Qandahar is currently, would neutralize the problem. Not to mention you would gain a very important city for the Seljuks and for Iran in general.

Ormuz isn't on the map. I'll think about a Qandhar --> Nishapur switch

Ok fine, I think these look great, but if you like the water in Blue Marble, why don't you include it then? And what about the HD LH's and better terrain and resource quality? It makes a much better game, and is VERY easy to implement. I've done it for vanilla RFC.

Just never got around to it, lol. But I'll do it before the next SVN release.

Also I agree with J.Pride the "Arabs" should represent the Ummayad Caliphate (Expansion) and the Abbasid Caliphate (Culture and Scientific Research). IMO the Arabs should just have Mecca for a couple of turns, before its handed over to Damascus, and then to Baghdad at semi-random dates. Frankly though Baghdad was not founded until 760's, so perhaps it keeping its original name until then would be a good idea. But no matter how you do it, I suggest you force the AI to move their capital out of the Hejaz ASAP.

Yup. And the Fatimids/ Mamluks/ other random Egyptian dynasties would be the Egypt rebirth.

My to-do list before I update the SVN:

1) Add Damascus instead of Antioch

2) Make cities in the Middle East not lose buildings except for when the Mongols invade.

3) Give Seljuks the ability to spread Islam and remove other religions like the Arabs (to remove Zoroastrianism, Buddhism from Central Asia and Orthodoxy from Anatolia so that the Turks are Muslim more often).

4) Revise Mongol conquerors event for Seljuks to spread out in waves and hopefully leave Anatolia alone as the Sultanate of Rum

6) Seljuks settlers on Isfahan and Tabriz, if they aren't already cities.

7) Add Abd-al-Rahman to Arabs, give Saladin to Egyptian respawn

8) Blue Marble

Next SVN release plans:

1) Controlled collapse for Seljuks

2) Make a decision for the Levant

3) Add Ghorids/ Sultanate of Delhi and Mughals

4) Finish up those respawned Egyptians

5) Work on the fairly messed up Civilopedia/ fix text issues

6) Conditional spawn for Ottomans- only if Anatolia is Seljuk, Mongol, Indie, or barb

7) Timurids- probably easiest as a Seljuk respawn

8) Unit spawns along the Indus to stop India from being so damn easy to conquer

9) Silk route needs to spread more

10) Revision of UP's/ UHV's in the Middle East

 

[J. pride]

6) Conditional spawn for Ottomans- only if Anatolia is Seljuk, Mongol, Indie, or barb

No, dont do that. The Ottomans had too much of an impact on world history and balance to be a what if civ. That like saying that Dutch of Moscow should only exist if the Mongols conquer Russia; or that the France and Spain should only exist if the Roman empire existed. I dont like these what ifs one bit. I dont even think the Byzantines should be what if? it just makes the game boring to have a weak Greece, Egypt and Rome rather than a strong Byzantine.

And so does that mean that you wont be changing the Arab collapse mechanic?

 

[J. pride]

4) Finish up those respawned Egyptians

Egyptian Respawn
Leaderhead: Saladin, Baibar, Muhammad Ali Pasha
Spawn- 1000 ad ( although the Fatimids spawned in 900 ad it wasnt till the 970s that they conquered Egypt so i propose 1000 ad cuz its a nice round number and gives the Arabs a few more turns)
UP- no idea
UU- The Berber Horse Archers or Mameluke Cavalry
UB- Souk ??
UHV- Conquer or settle the Maghrib (atleast 2 cities), Tripoli, Egypt, Hejaz, Yeman, Sicily, Palestine and Syria by 1170 ad.
- Have the highest score in 1300 ad.
- Make Cairo the most populous city in 1400 ad.

 

[Linkman226]

No, dont do that. The Ottomans had too much of an impact on world history and balance to be a what if civ. That like saying that Dutch of Moscow should only exist if the Mongols conquer Russia; or that the France and Spain should only exist if the Roman empire existed. I dont like these what ifs one bit. I dont even think the Byzantines should be what if? it just makes the game boring to have a weak Greece, Egypt and Rome rather than a strong Byzantine.

And so does that mean that you wont be changing the Arab collapse mechanic?

Alt history.

And no.

Egyptian Respawn
Spawn- 1000 ad ( although the Fatimids spawned in 900 ad it wasnt till the 970s that they conquered Egypt so i propose 1000 ad cuz its a nice round number and gives the Arabs a few more turns)
UP- no idea
UU- The Berber Horse Archers or Mameluke Cavalry
UB- Souk ??
UHV- Conquer or settle the Maghrib (atleast 2 cities), Tripoli, Egypt, Hejaz, Yeman, Sicily, Palestine and Syria by 1170 ad.
- Have the highest score in 1300 ad.
- Make Cairo the most populous city in 1400 ad.

Lol it initially said Mughal respawn, which made it quite hilarious.

Right now they have a spawn range between 900 and 1300 AD dependent on Arabian stability. I think I'll narrow that range and decrease the required Arab instability.
What is the UP in SoI?
Like the first and third UHV, not sure about the second. A tad dull. Also vassalize works for the first UHV.

 

[The Turk]

No, dont do that. The Ottomans had too much of an impact on world history and balance to be a what if civ. That like saying that Dutch of Moscow should only exist if the Mongols conquer Russia; or that the France and Spain should only exist if the Roman empire existed. I dont like these what ifs one bit. I dont even think the Byzantines should be what if? it just makes the game boring to have a weak Greece, Egypt and Rome rather than a strong Byzantine.

Agreed 100%. The Ottomans and the Byzantines should not be "what if" probabilities. I would not play a game where the Byzantines did not spawn or the Ottomans for that matter, as it would take out such a large part of gameplay IMO.

Egyptian Respawn
Leaderhead: Saladin, Baibar, Muhammad Ali Pasha
Spawn- 1000 ad ( although the Fatimids spawned in 900 ad it wasnt till the 970s that they conquered Egypt so i propose 1000 ad cuz its a nice round number and gives the Arabs a few more turns)
UP- no idea
UU- The Berber Horse Archers or Mameluke Cavalry
UB- Souk ??
UHV- Conquer or settle the Maghrib (atleast 2 cities), Tripoli, Egypt, Hejaz, Yeman, Sicily, Palestine and Syria by 1170 ad.
- Have the highest score in 1300 ad.
- Make Cairo the most populous city in 1400 ad.

wow wow wow, are we adding a whole new Islamic Egyptian civilization? Why not just respawn the Ancient Egyptians? They don't need new UHV's or a new UP anyway. I propose though just giving the Egyptians a second UU, as well as adding in the newer LH's. I would advice in general giving each civilization a starting UU and a more "modern" UU, so for example for the Egyptians:
1. War Chariot
2. Berber Horse Cavalry (not archers)

There is no reason to remove them completely, considering that the player might want to keep alive his 3000 BC Ancient Egyptian game, against the Arab and Byzantines and into the future, therefore by just adding on a new UU and LH it would just *modernize* them. This would be a lot easier to implement in general as well, compared to adding an entirely new civilization.

 

[Linkman226]

Dunno if you're playing with the latest SVN but the Egyptian respawn is quite common and I plan on making that Egyptian respawn the Islamic Egyptians.

 

[The Turk]

Dunno if you're playing with the latest SVN but the Egyptian respawn is quite common and I plan on making that Egyptian respawn the Islamic Egyptians.

Yes I do see the Ancient Egyptians respawn, but how do you make the Ancient Egyptians have a second UP and a second list of UHV's? How is that possible without creating a new civilization altogether?

 

[J. pride]

And no.

Thats a shame; well i tried my best to convince you.

Lol it initially said Mughal respawn, which made it quite hilarious.

copied the format from there

What is the UP in SoI?

Fatimid: The Power of Tolerence
Ayyubid: the current French UP; diplo bonus
Malmaluk: bonus against barbs (not sure bout this one)

 

[Linkman226]

Yes I do see the Ancient Egyptians respawn, but how do you make the Ancient Egyptians have a second UP and a second list of UHV's? How is that possible without creating a new civilization altogether?

The Magic of Modding

It is possible to change a civ's civilization type. That's how it currently works for Italy and the Safavids.... the code literally makes them a new civ. The code for the UHV's and UP's checks to see if the civ is reborn. If they are, it does X, if not, it does Y.

Fatimid: The Power of Tolerence
Ayyubid: the current French UP; diplo bonus
Malmaluk: bonus against barbs (not sure bout this one)

Ya none of these seem to have much of a place in this mod (although they obviously fit well into SoI). Hmmmm....

 

[J. pride]

Alt history.

Why dont you do this; it seems to me that the people who play the late civs (the ones also available in 600ad) in 3000 BC are the ones that are looking for Alt history and wierd starts. So why dont you officially make the post 600 ad civs in 3000 bc starts more alt history "freindly". It will please both audiences; people like me and Turk who enjoy realism and people like x(i dont know anybody who enjoys alt history more) who enjoy alternate history.

Ya none of these seem to have much of a place in this mod (although they obviously fit well into SoI). Hmmmm....

Few suggestions:
The Power of the Nile (+1 hammer for every two or three floodplains) because Egypt lacks production.
Al-Qaira; The jewel of Egypt Cairo gets a certain (food, production, happiness, or culture) bonus. This is because since the Arab invasion Cairo has been by far the most important city of Egypt.
The Power of Liberation Both the Fatimids and the Ayyubids were seen as liberators in the lands they conquered so maybe no resistance in conquered cities.

Like the first and third UHV, not sure about the second. A tad dull. Also vassalize works for the first UHV.

No i said conquer for a specific reason of challange. Its not dull considering you have 17 turns to settle 2 cities in the Maghrib and one in Sicily (and Libya if destroyed by barbarian) conquer Mecca, Sanaa, Damascus, Jerusalem, Tripoli, Neapolis (only way to clear Sicily of foreign culture). Add Baghdad if u still think its dull but i dont think it be possible then (also remember that you will be defending against the Seljuks)

Second UHV can be to make Cairo the most populous city and build the Al-Azhar Mosque and 1 or two other wonder (dont know which are available) by 1300 ad.

Third UHV can be to destroy x amount of Mongol Units and make sure no city in Mesopotamia and beyond gets conquered by the Mongols.
or
Third UHV can be to conquer the Ottoman Empire by 1835 to represent Muhammad Ali Pasha's war with the Ottomans. If the European powers had not intervened Ali could have easily conquered all of the Ottoman Empire and named himself the new Caliph. More info here

Also I would spawn an Ottoman stack in Egypt the first the Ottomans or the Egyptians declare war on each other. You can spawn 4 jannissaries and 3 cannons next to Cairo more if Egypt is human and less if Ottomans are human.

Egypt should also a lot be more likely to vassalize to the Ottomans after x date.

If you dont like my ideas on Arab Collapse can you please atleast do something to ensure that the Arabs survive keep Baghdad atleast half the time. After you add a proper Egypt that conquers the Levant you will realize why I wanted this (than again i might be wrong but i dont think i am).

 

[Linkman226]

In other news, since I was switching the Arab LH's, I thought I'd go ahead and add Pol Pot as the fascist LH for the Khmer

Why dont you do this; it seems to me that the people who play the late civs (the ones also available in 600ad) in 3000 BC are the ones that are looking for Alt history and wierd starts. So why dont you officially make the post 600 ad civs in 3000 bc starts more alt history "freindly". It will please both audiences; people like me and Turk who enjoy realism and people like x(i dont know anybody who enjoys alt history more) who enjoy alternate history.

This is a fairly good idea. Thanks.

Few suggestions:
The Power of the Nile (+1 hammer for every two or three floodplains) because Egypt lacks production.
Al-Qaira; The jewel of Egypt Cairo gets a certain (food, production, happiness, or culture) bonus. This is because since the Arab invasion Cairo has been by far the most important city of Egypt.
The Power of Liberation Both the Fatimids and the Ayyubids were seen as liberators in the lands they conquered so maybe no resistance in conquered cities.

Thanks, I'll mull this over and select one eventually.

Its not dull considering you have 17 turns to settle 2 cities in the Maghrib and one in Sicily (and Libya if destroyed by barbarian) conquer Mecca, Sanaa, Damascus, Jerusalem, Tripoli, Neapolis (only way to clear Sicily of foreign culture). Add Baghdad if u still think its dull but i dont think it be possible then (also remember that you will be defending against the Seljuks)

I meant that the highest score UHV is boring, not the conquest one.

Second UHV can be to make Cairo the most populous city and build the Al-Azhar Mosque and 1 or two other wonder (dont know which are available) by 1300 ad.

Third UHV can be to destroy x amount of Mongol Units and make sure no city in Mesopotamia and beyond gets conquered by the Mongols.

These are great, thanks.

Also I would spawn an Ottoman stack in Egypt the first the Ottomans or the Egyptians declare war on each other. You can spawn 4 jannissaries and 3 cannons next to Cairo more if Egypt is human and less if Ottomans are human.

Um, what? Why? Why is this necessary?

 

[J. pride]

Sorry but i added a few things after u responded so u might want to look it over (i have a bad habit of editing). I added a new third UHV and a few other comments

Um, what? Why? Why is this necessary?

Because I fear the Ottomans might not be able to conquer Egypt by themselves just like Mongolia could not conquer China. Though you could also give Egypt a stability drop in 1400 so they most likely collapse by the 1500s to leave the area open for Ottoman expansion.

 

[J. pride]

In other news, since I was switching the Arab LH's, I thought I'd go ahead and add Pol Pot as the fascist LH for the Khmer

Oh, should have mentioned this before. Change the Arab LH to Harun Al Rashid not Abd Rehman

And since you are in the process of adding the Fatimids and the Seljuks; it would be a good time to add the Moors.

 

[ozqar]

Hey... so I installed the tortoise svn software and tried to create the svn checkout on the Mods folder. When I run it, it says access is denied (I assume because of the admin access rights and that), but I already manually created a folder with the same name and it still won't work. Could anyone help me out?

Oh, and about the conditional spawn for the Ottomans, I don't think that would be cool at all. As said, there are too many civs that should be conditional, if you were to strict about that, but that simply wouldn't be interesting to play

 

[great.taurus]

Oh, ok. This is the direct download. Scroll to the bottom of the first post to see how you can get the SVN, it has a lot of cool stuff.

You guys are gonna really like this:

View attachment 300492

Eurasia on the Dutch spawn. The area circled in orange was once part of the Mongol empire. I have since reduced the Mongol conquerors for the Seljuks so Greece doesn't go Mongol too.

Also note the Ming respawn.

Now some history of this world:

The Seljuk invasions:

View attachment 300493

View attachment 300494

View attachment 300495

The Mongol invasions:

View attachment 300496

View attachment 300497

View attachment 300498

The aftermath:

Turks spawn:

View attachment 300499

Update soon, after adding Damascus and running a few more trials.

A downside of these invasions I've noticed is that the Silk Route never gets much of chance to take root. I'll work on fixing that.

Best. Post. Ever.

 

[J. pride]

Hey... so I installed the tortoise svn software and tried to create the svn checkout on the Mods folder. When I run it, it says access is denied (I assume because of the admin access rights and that), but I already manually created a folder with the same name and it still won't work. Could anyone help me out?

Oh, and about the conditional spawn for the Ottomans, I don't think that would be cool at all. As said, there are too many civs that should be conditional, if you were to strict about that, but that simply wouldn't be interesting to play

Ozgar, try moving ur synthesis folder out BTS to desktop or documents then update the svn and then move it back; thats what i do. The restriction is there to protect programs but not applicable in this case as the program needs modification.

 

[Leoreth]

No, dont do that. The Ottomans had too much of an impact on world history and balance to be a what if civ. That like saying that Dutch of Moscow should only exist if the Mongols conquer Russia; or that the France and Spain should only exist if the Roman empire existed. I dont like these what ifs one bit. I dont even think the Byzantines should be what if? it just makes the game boring to have a weak Greece, Egypt and Rome rather than a strong Byzantine.

And so does that mean that you wont be changing the Arab collapse mechanic?

I concur. Taking out the (Ottoman) Turks messes up the game in the long term, with all their impact on Europe and the Middle East. Not to mention the problems they ought to give the (human) Byzantines.

 

[Linkman226]

Hey... so I installed the tortoise svn software and tried to create the svn checkout on the Mods folder. When I run it, it says access is denied (I assume because of the admin access rights and that), but I already manually created a folder with the same name and it still won't work. Could anyone help me out?

Do you have vista? Quite typical.

Best. Post. Ever.

Thanks!

Ozgar, try moving ur synthesis folder out BTS to desktop or documents then update the svn and then move it back; thats what i do. The restriction is there to protect programs but not applicable in this case as the program needs modification.

Uh-hu. This is why I hate vistas, BTW.

I concur. Taking out the (Ottoman) Turks messes up the game in the long term, with all their impact on Europe and the Middle East. Not to mention the problems they ought to give the (human) Byzantines.

Ya by popular demand I've changed my mind.