Pyre Zombies!!!

[Schmoe]

I just discovered that there is virtually no effective defense against 20+ Pyre Zombies. I was attacked by a huge Sheaim stack (70+ units) that included gobs of Pyre Zombies in my heavily fortified city. My units were actually doing quite well, except that every time a Pyre Zombie died, my units all got 1-9% damage. After 10 or so of the zombies, my defenders started dying from the collateral damage.

It seems to me the only defense is Drill IV, and even that is only partial. Most of the other %damage effects I've seen are capped, but it seems that Pyre Zombie damage is not. Is there anything else you can do to prevent annihilation from such a stack?

 

[orangelex44]

Use a "holding" magic - from Empyrean, or something - and kill them in small groups. Have someone with Heal along.

Or send suicide units in one at a time - keep a ton of Warriers or something two squares away, use Roads to move them in one at a time. You'll lose a ton of units, but less than sending one stack against another. Skeletons are really good against Pyre Zombies, too - it's nice to use them once, then disband them, then resummon them for next turn.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Pyre zombies are *very* strong. Generally the best defense is either an active one, with move three units (Get a kill, run away to heal) or by forcing them to explode early. (Throw out moderately strong units in stacks of one against them that will likely defensively kill a zombie (ergo collateralling the entire stack).

 

[Schmoe]

Hmm, I tried a somewhat active defense with a couple of shadows and some horse archers, but that brings up a related question. I couldn't tell what was actually in the stack because I just saw a list of Diseased Corpses that scrolled up off the screen. I figured the stack was about 30 or so, and had what I thought to be a reasonable defense. Imagine my surprise when the stack turned out to have easily double that number, including a number of "bonus" enemies like Rosier the Fallen, Baron Duin Halfmoon, Eidolons, and Beasts of Agares. I gave better than I got, but lost in the end. If I had known more about the stack, I'm quite certain I would have moved Hyborem (with his fear) in as a city defender, which very likely would have provided at least a couple more turns to whittle down the enemies. Instead, Dis (and the game) were lost.

So... is there a way to see what's in a very large stack?

Also, ironically, my Balors turned out to be my best defenders, simply by virtue of their fire resistance. Heh, who would have thunk it?

 

[Fafnir13]

Not really anyway to tell. Biggest stack I've ever faced was over 50 angels plus a good deal of others. The game will stack all those which are exactly the same into one "tab" but if there's the slightest variance it separates them out. Rather annoying, and makes it harder to make tactical decisions.

 

[Schmoe]

Pyre zombies are *very* strong. Generally the best defense is either an active one, with move three units (Get a kill, run away to heal) or by forcing them to explode early. (Throw out moderately strong units in stacks of one against them that will likely defensively kill a zombie (ergo collateralling the entire stack).

In re-reading this, you seem to be saying that a pyre zombie will collaterally damage it's own stack when it dies. I recall that being true back in the days of 0.23, but I'm 90% certain that didn't happen in a recent game with 0.33. Has it changed?

 

[Kael]

In re-reading this, you seem to be saying that a pyre zombie will collaterally damage it's own stack when it dies. I recall that being true back in the days of 0.23, but I'm 90% certain that didn't happen in a recent game with 0.33. Has it changed?

No, Pyre Zombies wont hurt there own stacks. Lots of good ideas to fight them here, I tend to go down the path of the high movement raiders to whiddle them down before they get to my cities, though 30 is going to be tough.

 

[BillSeurer]

I just ran into this sort of thing in my current game. A big stack of Pyre Zombies and again as many assorted other things came after me while I was at war with another AI player in that other AI's territory. My assault forces were partly spread out among the conquered cities except for 7 or 8 of my best guys who were in the last city I had conquered which was the first city the Stack of Doom chose to attack.

I didn't think they could survive the assault so I retreated them to the next nearest city leaving a sole archer behind. (for fun I saved the game before retreating and let them be attacked; my whole stack was wiped out) The archer took out two attackers and then the diminished Stack of Doom moved on. I just retreated ahead of basically trading about 1 archers for each 1.5 attackers (they almost always took out one attacker, sometimes two). I sent my fasted units around behind him retaking the cities. In the end I lost fewre than 10 units and killed 25 maybe and we traded cities 7 or 8 times, several more than once. I even eventually picked off his leader (Rosier the Fallen IIRC), too, though I lost 3 more units whittling him down so he could be taken out.

This is the first time I've gotten mobile warfare like that to work out. I usually just make a big stack of the toughest units I can make, attack one of the enemy's cities, then hunker down and take on the eventual counterattack or two. Usually the AI throws everything its got into those first big attacks so if you can weather them you can take out the whole rest of the country fairly easily because there will only be mostly static defenders left.

 

[Sarisin]

Hmm, I tried a somewhat active defense with a couple of shadows and some horse archers, but that brings up a related question. I couldn't tell what was actually in the stack because I just saw a list of Diseased Corpses that scrolled up off the screen. I figured the stack was about 30 or so, and had what I thought to be a reasonable defense. Imagine my surprise when the stack turned out to have easily double that number, including a number of "bonus" enemies like Rosier the Fallen, Baron Duin Halfmoon, Eidolons, and Beasts of Agares. I gave better than I got, but lost in the end. If I had known more about the stack, I'm quite certain I would have moved Hyborem (with his fear) in as a city defender, which very likely would have provided at least a couple more turns to whittle down the enemies. Instead, Dis (and the game) were lost.

So... is there a way to see what's in a very large stack?

Also, ironically, my Balors turned out to be my best defenders, simply by virtue of their fire resistance. Heh, who would have thunk it?

I started a thread not too long ago called "Super Stacks" or something like that. In one game I encounter stacks from three different civs with over 100 units in the stack. A fourth civ had a stack with over 200 units.

If you find that thread you can see the pics I uploaded (I deleted the pics or would upload them again here).

With stacks that large in the past I would have agreed with you that the description of the units in the stack would truncate I you would have no idea what was in the stack.

However, in .33 I found the units that were similar would be put in parenthesis as to the total amount of each. So, you would see something like this:

Rangers (34)
Axemen (50)
Horsemen (7)
Beastmen (33)
Adepts (15)

Etc.

I'm surprised you didn't see that in the stack in your game which would have given you a better idea what was coming.

 

[Zechnophobe]

No, Pyre Zombies wont hurt there own stacks. Lots of good ideas to fight them here, I tend to go down the path of the high movement raiders to whiddle them down before they get to my cities, though 30 is going to be tough.

They do on offense don't they? If they attack you, and die, then the 'death' is considered in the target's square, and damages the stack. If you attack them, and kill it, then it doesn't damage their stack.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

They do on offense don't they? If they attack you, and die, then the 'death' is considered in the target's square, and damages the stack. If you attack them, and kill it, then it doesn't damage their stack.

It used to be that way, but this was fixed when it was moved to using the <PythonPostCombatLost> tag for a python call.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I think it would be awesome if they actually damaged their own stack if you managed to kill them before they get to you (i.e. preemptive strike) . coupled with a decreased chance to defend the stack, this would make them deadly but vulnerable, and you'd have to have someone around to guard them unless you want a smart opponent to blow them all up in your face

 

[Schmoe]

However, in .33 I found the units that were similar would be put in parenthesis as to the total amount of each. So, you would see something like this:

Rangers (34)
Axemen (50)
Horsemen (7)
Beastmen (33)
Adepts (15)

Etc.

I'm surprised you didn't see that in the stack in your game which would have given you a better idea what was coming.

Well, the problem was that there were enough different "variations" of things that they scrolled off the screen. So instead of your example, I saw something more like the following:

---------Top of Screen--------
Diseased Corpse
Diseased Corpse
Diseased Corpse
Diseased Corpse
Diseased Corpse
Diseased Corpse
Diseased Corpse
Diseased Corpse
Diseased Corpse
Diseased Corpse (7)
Diseased Corpse (19)
Moebius Witch
Ritualist
Ritualist (3)
Diseased Corpse


So, I didn't even realize there were things like the accompanying Eidolons, Beasts of Agares, various heroes, and, of course, the Pyre Zombies. In truth, I still don't have a good idea of how many were in the stack, just that I killed more than 30 when they attacked, and I can see numbers greater than 30 left over in the city. So I have a lower bound, but no good way of estimating the actual numbers.

It just occurred to me that this may have something to do with some collateral damage I was doing in an attempt to soften up the stack on the approach. Units that are damaged different amounts probably show up separately. I'll have to go back to an auto-save to try to see if I can get a better estimate of the numbers.

 

[onedreamer]

The problem of Pyre Zombies stacks is that all the counters (several) proposed are situational and from my experiences it's actually more common that you can't use any good (or even bad) counter than else if you play on a Pangaea map, because you most likely won't have time to stop them before they get to your cities, and when they do...

- being on the offensive works if they aren't escorted, but they often are
- drill won't help your other units from collateral damage
- mobility is probably the best counter, but having many fast units is bad because they are crappy at defense
- holding magic is good but you need to have a) the right mana type b) beelined Sorcery. Pyre Zombies come quite earlier than mages.

 

[orangelex44]

Well, the megastacks of Zombies shouldn't appear until at least the midgame, when you should have one of these alternatives available. In the early game, when the stack is more manageable - less than 20 - there's one sure-fire strategy: outnumber the enemy. Tough to do, but a Warrier spam combined with Skeleton Adepts can fight Pyre Zombies to a standstill if done correctly. You have to have decent scouting, so you know the stack is coming and can start working on it outside of your borders. Send attackers in groups (enough to wound everyone in the stack, but only kill one - no collateral damage), use Skeletons wherever possible (they're free), set up walls of units and force them to attack you. Stall, stall, stall... once a few units are wounded/killed, the AI is apt to stop and heal or withdraw completely. It's an expensive strategy, and leaves you weak coming into the midgame (no economy), but weak is better than dead.

 

[xienwolf]

Malakim Mages are also quite a nice counter. I do love me some sand lions Again though, very situational.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

Yea, count me on the boat that thinks there should be a limit to pyre zombies. At least back in the day, there was a drawback to using them (since they could hurt themselves) but now there isn't any at all. If your enemy is super pre-emptive and striking at you (and still hurting themselves) then you basically get a free win. Its simply an irritating mechanic to force a human player to do something.

With most things, if you're busy waging a war, you can stack up some good defenders and buildings and hold off most attacks. Sure, they have tricks to weaken you and kill you but you have a chance. A stack of pyre zombies simply WILL win unless you actively defend by attacking.

If pyre zombie AOE attack had a reasonable damage limit like say 20% or 25% then they would still be useful but not as powerful as they are now.

PS I'm not 100% sure about the facts above... ie maybe they already have a limit... but just some observations based on being attacked by em recently and whats posted above.

 

[heisenberg]

I'd agree with Orangelex that those pyre zombies only appear in large enough numbers to threaten to collateral defending stacks to near-death mid-game and later. The Sheaim are a pretty late civ anyway, so they can be pretty vulnerable early on (which kinda makes up for the pyres imo).

The various strats listed here are decent counters to them. Not to mention that by mid-late game you'd probably have some decent high-str mobility units to whittle the mega-zombie stacks down slowly, after all those zombies cant upgrade (besides weapons). You'd probably lose 1-2 border cities while you slowly get rid of those zombies, but you do get quite some decent xp from harvesting them. They are somewhat analogous to carrying a mega-stack of cats anyway. (and you don't really hear complaints about those =P)

 

[onedreamer]

how can you even compare them to catapults is beyond me. Much higher defensive strength and collateral damage upon death. Catapults can only dream about these, they are just cannon fodder for assassins.

 

[Blackmantle]

Huh? Remember: Siege is immune to poison. (that is, if immunity works. But it will one day for sure, so we can pretend...)
They are actually better against assasins than their adept / mage counterparts (especially after poisoned blades are applied).
Especially the dwarven trebuchets... (which are the only ones likely to be built often. At least in my experience.)
+ repairing them is easier even for Khazad than doing so for Living units (let alone Pyres). They "just" need Alteration.


+ they come way earlier than Assasins. So some of those are likely to allready have some promotions making them even more formidable oponents... Also they are rather cheap in comparison. Nothing i whould like to waste my Assasins on either way. (with such a stack of cats / trebs i whould need a sizable force of Assasins on my own (harassing them a bit with some ghosts which are my usual assasins might work in both cases, but still not the best targets... and just some of them won't destroy a whole stack on their own and reliably.). If i don't destroy the vast majority of the stack mine will be toast just as well. There like with pyres i whould rather throw strong things at them one by one and use spells to hamper them / slowly wear them down. A Ranger / Satyr or something like that sounds well for such a thing... As do mounted units.)


That doesn't make them compare to pyre zombies naturally (trebs do come somewhat close though. At least with support from some though, bearded short-guys. And for actually taking cites out of AI hands trebs might even do a tad bit better if supported.).
But both a stack of trebuchets/cats with some support and a stack of Pyre Zombies with some support can be terrifying if they do appear early enough. (And in emperor + its not unlikely to see them rather early. On emperor, such stacks are not completely impossible for midgame if such a civ has some sucess at establishing itslef. At deity they should be a common sight. Adepts summoning Skelletons also are rather nasty and are a common sight on higher difficulties as well.)
Also sieges are immune to destroy undead. Might not seem like much at all (and won't help early unless you are Elhoim). But it will do much more so with the implementation of explorable lairs. With which the spell will become way more popular for sure...


Honestly, they are comparable in a way in both strengths, weaknesses and counters. Pyres are "just" much more stable on their own + can kill units on their own. But then the Sheaim have few other martial things to back them up. (and going for them detracts from going for other things that make the Sheaim powerful.)

And Sheaim are not a late civ anymore since they got death-mana at start.
Skelleton-swarm (followed up by spectres and wraiths naturally.) ftw... Free easily replacable champions (with one first strike as well? Don't know for sure if the dance effects them as nonliving ones) do kick butt at early Tier 2 (earlier usually than copper Zombies...). With enough adepts they even handle Tier 3 more or less solidly.
The only point they really lack now is midgame but thats allright. They need at least some kind of drawback... They are top-tier nontheless.


To add some "solution" to the mix: Units with fire-resistance (ideally immunity of course ) might help.
But those might be hard to come by... And they whould still need to win vs. the zombies "martial" part...

Also with the new requirements for Guardsmen that might turn out to be somewhat of an option as well...