Pyre Zombies!!!

[cabbagemeister]

But unlike siege, PZs cause collateral when they die on defense as well as on offense. This is especially nice when combined with the relatively high strength of PZs, because it means that they're likely to be the very first defenders. Thus, even if your units are severely outclassed by an adjacent stack, every attack the enemy makes leaves their whole stack weaker, while your surviving defenders still have 100HP. It doesn't take much of this before your PZs are killing champions on defense.

 

[avalonnn]

It might be nice to teach the AI to avoid the collateral damage. I have no idea how you would go about doing that.

I'm starting to think that it's time to create a thread called "changes we like" . . . for me it would be the portable Lyre, Crown, and Hoard.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Huh? Remember: Siege is immune to poison. (that is, if immunity works. But it will one day for sure, so we can pretend...)
They are actually better against assasins than their adept / mage counterparts (especially after poisoned blades are applied).

Eh, no I think Onedreamer is correct.

Pyre zombies have defense of 4
Pyre zombies can get defensive bonuses
Pyre zombies can get more experience in combat.
Pyre zombies effect the entire stack with collateral damage
Pyre zombies can use weapons.
Pyre zombies are undead which makes them immune to POISON as well as DEATH damage
Pyre zombies require Bronze working which costs only a smidge more than Construction
Pyre zombies are an army in and of themselves, whereas catapults will need something else.
Pyre zombies do not require a building to build. You need Siege workshops to build catapults.
Pyre zombies can get mobility
Pyre zombies do collateral on DEFENSE.

Oh, and Catapults cost 50% more, so that's pretty big too.

I'm sorry, what were the arguments for Catapults again?

 

[Blackmantle]

I guess you misread my statement (even the part you did quote). Read again... Unless you consider Pyre Zombies to be adepts/mages... (which fill a simmilar role as Sieges in FFH2 but are much better in many ways, Pyre Zombies fill other Roles as well, and decently so. Thats whats their strength.)


Hint for better understanding (given the message is a given a bit unclear, but clear enough to be seen if read thoroughly):
My comment was mainly aimed at the "siege-units are just assasin-fooder..." part + that Pyre Zombies are not the only way to go for Sheaim (or only threat the AI fields while playing them since they sometimes bring on quite a number of death 1-adepts if they survive beeing rushed by me and others.)... + that an early huge AI stack of siege units (most likely seen in form of trebs with a few dwarven meelee units for support and possibly quite earlier than zombies) can pose a simmilar (if not all as big of a) problem with simmilar counters necessary... (And that assasins are far from a really adequate counter. For many reasons.)

Since this is a strategy and tips forum those statements (like siege=just assasin foodder) should be evaluated as well imo and not ignore if they are just plain wrong.
Lest unexperienced players reading it here really try to counter a stack of sieges (backed up by a few other units, most likely beeing melee) with a smaller stack of assasins (you can imagine the outcome...).

Most of your points i did as well even though in a more general and much shorter way (since i consider them more or less obvious, even to rather inexperienced players unlike sieges immunity to poison-damage), but explicit enough to be a clear statement of not! siege>pyre zombies. Doesn't change that an early (AI) superstack of sieges can pose a simmilar problem as well (had it once from cassiel at early Tier 2 / the time i had Axemen at Deity. Annoying to boot.). Or whould you disagree?

I don't like siege very much in FFH 2 but its a tad bit better than sometimes made out to be.
Its still a very early and relatively reliable (85% Withdrawl is enough to call em that.) stack buster + city cracker. (and from top of my head with anyone but luchirp i whouldn't get construction and thus normal catapults, much early anyways so they are not of interest anyways since from Late Tier 2- early Tier 3 Melee / Recon / Mounted or Tier 2 Divine / Arcane there are much better options available usually. Trebs sound sorts of neat even at that point, if a bit to slow for my tastes.) siege bashing is a bit! overdone imo.
Their biggest problem that those things are lacking any mobility.
But if huge Stacks containing a few or even lots of them appear early, they still are bloody annoying.


+ theoretical costs are rather inconsequential when you face such a stack in the field, aren't they?

And just in case my english should be broken in that regard (quite possible), the cost-comparison was between assasins and siege of course...

 

[onedreamer]

[...]They are somewhat analogous to carrying a mega-stack of cats anyway. (and you don't really hear complaints about those =P)

This is what I commented. Someone said that a stack of Pyre Zombie is the same thing of a stack of Catapults. I commented saying that it's "beyond me" (ie my understanding) comparing them.
Blackmantle, if you can make catapults the same thing of Pyre Zombie, then I congratulate with you. Good job

 

[Blackmantle]

Well since the topic at hand is about facing an AI stack of pyre zombies in game he is sort of right (in context) for! the topic at hand since the AI rarely (never?) fields a stack of siege (which happens only at emperor + at all in my experience. Rarely below immortal.) without support mixed in... So the AI will do a simmilar thing to you with them if you are not reacting appropriately (given, there are a few more counters possible than against Pyres.).

To say pyres = cats or cats > pyres in a general way is false of course (most of the reasons can be seen in Zechnophobes post quite well, no need to restate.).

(Give me a big stack of siege like the AI fields early and some units for support and i can indeed devastate an AI akin to what can be done with a stack of Pyres, for obvious reasons. Just in a less efficient way.
As a player i whouldn't field pure stacks of siege for empire destruction. Not even AI whould do such a stupid thing of course.)



Hope my comment regarding yours about siege beeing assasin fodder didn't come across at to offensive.
Isn't ment as harsh critics, just to adress a comment for the toppic at hand (since Assasins are a simmilarly bad counter for pyres than for a stack of cats + support.)


Btw. the discussion has got me to think of another possible "counter" to superstacks of pyres / cats + support which seems appropriate: Just hit the stack of pyres with a few cats . Then they should be attackable by even rather weak units (like warriors, mounted do much better still of course, especially blitzing ones) easily. (they also might sit around a bit to heal giving more time to harass said stack.)

 

[heisenberg]

lol in my original post referring to cats i never mentioned them being the same, I simply called pyres analogous to cats--just that they can be dealt with somewhat similar ways, like using high mobility units to hit them in your territory then retreat to heal to prevent counterattacks.

 

[onedreamer]

well then you made a coupla errors, namely:
1. they aren't remotely analogous in the way you can deal with them (not more analogous to deal with than any other unit)
2. even if it was your intention to do it, you didn't actually say this

 

[onedreamer]

well I've seen Pyre Zombies in action in the last version on the Erebus map, and they are pretty mean. First off, Sheaim will beeline them and have pretty consistent stacks pretty early. On this map, you won't have time to stop them in the wilderness most of the time, plus they are well escorted usually and the land was heavily forested. I had a hard time finding a counter and was at one step from annihilation, in the end I found the only viable strategy so early in the game was promoting some units to magic resistance first and fire resistance then. This also requires combat 3 though.

 

[Schmoe]

For such an early and easy-to-acquire unit, they are *very* tough to deal with. It definitely puts the Sheaim in the top tier of civs, IMHO. Personally, I'd like to see a limit do the amount of collateral damage from Pyre Zombies - for example, maybe limit it so that Pyre Zombie collateral damage can't wound a unit below 40% of its health. That would still keep them very dangerous, but it would at least prevent the "unstoppable force" effect.

 

[onedreamer]

I agree with you schmoe... or at least, whatever the limit, they shouldn't be able to kill a unit just with collateral damage.

 

[avalonnn]

Want to be thematic? Make the PZs unusual? MAke it impossible to heal them. They become true suicide units.

Or give a small blowback when they die in a stack.

 

[deadliver]

Whats the real issue here? Kill the Sheiam asap, I am not the only person who does that right?

 

[orangelex44]

No.... let them live, to unleash TERROR upon the world!

 

[avalonnn]

Whats the real issue here? Kill the Sheiam asap, I am not the only person who does that right?

I'm too busy going after the Balseraphs.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

So I guess magic is the only solution against them then?

 

[das]

Some catapults plus lots of cavalry are the way to go, though the maneuvering will be tricky.

 

[avalonnn]

Also, your two religious heroes, plus the national hero, would help. I only had Wilbo (Where's Wilbo?).

Of course, the destroy undead spell would be powerful. Does it only affect four units in the stack? Are pyre zombies immune to fire? If so, pillar of fire, etc., would not do much.

Could I put out their fires with Spring and turn them into normal zombies? ::

 

[brucedecatz]

For knowing what a "megastack" consists of: press F5 for military adviser. If you are not scouting your opponent's terrain (when you are fighting a defensive war it is not likely) you will see the numbers of each unit type the opponent has in your territory.

 

[Schmoe]

For knowing what a "megastack" consists of: press F5 for military adviser. If you are not scouting your opponent's terrain (when you are fighting a defensive war it is not likely) you will see the numbers of each unit type the opponent has in your territory.

That's a good tip, and something I hadn't thought to do. Thanks!