RBC12J - Eastern Roman Empire

(0) 444 - A bit of a change since I was last in command. We're nowhere near as on our heels as we were then. F8 shows us at almost 22000 VPs, well over 4500 ahead of our Western Roman cousins. The Sassanids have lost 5 cities, so if I can manage to off 3 more, they'll be gone and our biggest threat will be eliminated. That would be very nice.

Do a little bit of MM but very few changes are reqiured -- it's most piddly little stuff like changing a few taxmen to scientists (3/turn instead of 2/turn) or pulling off a worker who was just going to grow a city too soon and letting him be a specialist for a couple turns until a settler completes. Very little to do -- most cities are awfully corrupt and nearly all cities are pretty well optimized. At least we have some luxuries to keep the people content.

One of our big problems is 51 gpt in unit upkeep costs. Another 20 cities would help that enormously. A few settlers are under production and we have one complete and out wandering. I'll be tempted to merge in the occasional native worker, too, as they cost and their payback time is reasonably far into the future.

And, in a repeat of Arathorn I's folly, I increase science to 20%, fully expecting that action to bring down a horde upon my head...the Ostrogoths turn to make us sweat, perhaps?

(I) Sassies lose a horse vs. a garrison, an archer vs. a horse, and then retreat that horse with another archer. Does that mean they have no more horses??? That'd be sweet. Everything else is strangely quiet. Huns move forces but are no threat currently.

(1) 446 - At Singara, two spears fall to our legion army, but it still holds. Troop rearrangement to meet potential or real threats, increase our knowledge of the world, and to please the harem of the emperor are performed. Other than Singara and a couple archers nearby, which also fall easily, little action is done.

Map trading and MM ensue. There is little to be done.

(I) An exploring slave is captured by the Sassanids. *yawn* And that's it!? What a pleasant set of interturns this is turning into!

(2) 448 - Troops and workers move, settlers move. At Singara, our legion army gets into the red before killing a spear, so a two-troop HCav army finishes off the last spear and razes the city.

Army loads up and heads for Europe. Not sure what troops are there to fill it with, but that's a decision I don't need to make now. Sassies still lead in the "lost cities" race with 6. I hope to finish them off on my turns, but we'll see.

One exploring slave finds some white barbs, who will surely kill him interturn. Oh well.

Science up to 30% for Christianity in only 20 turns. Make that 18 with one taxman -> scientist change.

(I) ZoC takes a couple hps off of Hun and Sassanid troops. Sassanids manage to kill a legionary and capture a couple slaves for the loss of one horse. They'll lose more my next turn.

(3) 450 -Pults go 3-for-3 vs. Huns, so they should be relatively easy to finish off. Two die quickly...three still remain. We have three garrisons with catapult back-up in a fortress. I don't think I should be worried. Another 5 Hun troops are in view, but we seem to be fine right now. Sassies lose about 3 horses and we get our slaves back. They're rather confused but run west again. They might serve as bait but it's unintentional.

Science goes all the way up to 40% for Christianity in 14 with 2 gpt still coming in as income. Make a bit of gold selling our new world map.

(I) Ostros sail up to Constantinople but don't drop anything off. It's only one ship and they only carry like one troop anyway, so I fear it very little. Sassies pillage a square near Ceasera. Western Rome declares on the Ostrogoths.

(4) 452 - Naissus and Dyrrachium founded to give us more cash. That's four cities on my turn and I hope to get a few more. They really help our financial situation. Wealth and a scientist is worth 5 gpt, not even counting the one free unit support. It's backline so it's not even like losing it will be a problem with the 8-city rule.

Slaughter a couple more Huns and a couple spears in Ctesiphon go bye-bye as well. Oh, wait. Septum founded, too. We're growing!!!

(I) Enemy troops move..and for whatever reason the Sassanids declare on the Vizigoths. Can you say "psuedowar"? Good, I knew you could.

WTF? I can't build HCav any more, despite the fact that they're hooked up by Constantinople? Were we trading them away? Must be. Hmm... legionaries are almost as good, so I guess I'll build those instead.

(5) 454 - We're trading Horses to both the Franks and the WRomans. I guess we need to prop them up however we can. I'll see if I can connect another horse. I knew we got one pillaged by Caesera, but with so many hooked up, it didn't seem important. I guess I should know better.

Two more Huns die. Ctesiphon loses 4 more spears, but it has at least one left. We wake 'pults at Caesera and bombard the pillaging spear. I wonder if the WRoman archer will manage to do us some good and kill him off.

(I) Sassanids go way out of their way to capture a couple slaves back. No loss there. Huns move in and around and make nice targets of themselves, generally.

(6) 456 - Catapults are nearly worthless by the Huns. Caesera hits twice, though, and the Ostrogoth curragh is down one hp.

A full army of 3 HCav is now in Europe. It doesn't have any movement left, but I'm thinking its job may be to try to finish off the Ostrogoths and distract the Huns from the west. Or maybe it will just protect the twinned S cities or Sirmium and Singidunum, if/when they come under attack.

At Ctesiphon, our armies tire dramatically but kill 4 spears and raze the city, gaining 27 and a catapult I don't know what to do with. I *think* that gives us access to silks, though, which could be very handy for happiness purposes, as we're always on the brink of revolt in a bunch of cities.

Arathorn I's luck returns at Caesera, where an elite horsie dies to a 2-hp spear. *pout*

Silk does indeed allow me to put a bunch of slackers to work, whether it be worthless entertainers becoming beneficial specialists or specialists into the field, our nation's wealth and prosperity grow. Some people foolishly proclaimed the might Roman empire as waning. Not now. We are growing strong and terrible!!!

(I) Huns start bypassing the killing grounds, which means the defense will need to change a bit. Sassanids continue to go after slaves like crazy, ignoring our troops crushing their cities. Only one more to go, but our armies will need to rest before continuing on. Pillaging between Ceasera and Antioch is becoming a major concern, however. I'm going to need to rush a legion to keep order along that line. An exploring slaves bites the dust, too.

(7) 458 - HCav army in Europe does indeed start moving north towards the Ostrogoths. Every foe we can fight in their territory is one less we'll have to defend our cities from. Armies in the desert rest before the final push.

(I) Huns are coming in numbers -- at least 4 or 5 new troops/turn. They're starting to get past the fortification a bit. Not quite sure what to do, but it's not a pressing issue at this point.

The WRomans prove they do have SOME value and kill a Sassanid spear on the road between Caesera and Antioch. We thank them.

(8) 460 - Quiet turn. Kill a Hun troop, of course, but only one, as the army needs a bit of rest and the 'pults performed poorly. Approaching readiness to move again in the east.

(I) Huns get dinged by ZoC a bit. A-S declare on the Visigoths.

(9) 462 - Arbela is targetted and looking a bit wilty with 3 armies bearing down on it. HCav army approaching Ostro territory through the maze of Vizigoths in the way.

Huns lose 3 more troops and are starting to slow to a trickle again.

Science up to 50%, which is deficit research, but we can get Christianity in 3 that way. I'm starting to fear the Romans completing Justinian and hampering us.

(I) Tons of Huns appear. It's gettting dicey up there again. A couple more legions are on the way. And the armies in the south should be making their way north very soon, which should change the dynamics of the Hun war...I hope.

(10) 464 - We're at 26705 VPs. Arbela loses one, two, three spears and is captured, along with 4 workers. One of them will become a colony on horses VERY soon. For now, it's a support center for our troops. Very brief game pause before the announcement of the elimination of the Fledgling Sassanids. WOOHOO! VPs only go to 27785...just over 1000 for their elimination. They were pretty well toast already. But, more importantly, we can now focus our troops north to deal with the Hun menace.

A-S are now the leaders in cities lost, with 6. I hope WRome doesn't kill them off and get a big bonus and catch/pass us.

I break a cardinal SG rule and set up a goto that will extend past the end of my turn. It's a slave worker in ex-Sassanid territory. There are spices up there, but they're hard to see and I didn't want ANY confusion about what to do with that slave. He's on a mission to get us another luxury. It's only one guy and he's JUST a slave. When he arrives, have him build a colony and re-MM.

Kill 3 Huns, but they still have a stack of 6 troops plus an extra hanging around. I've got a line they can either try to go through (and probably succeed) or around, which would let us pick them off piecemeal. More troops are on the way.

I even get to kill a couple Ostrogoths to avenge some earlier wounds. We're in a position to raze a city as early as next turn.

We're up to 27885 VPs. That's a gain of almost 6000 on my turns. Next player probably won't see the victory but the one after will. I am certainly done.

Thanks for the fun all!!!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/rbc12j-464ad.zip

Arathorn
 
More notes....

Our three armies that were in the Sassanid territory should all head north. They can join up with the road around the east side of the Black Sea that the Huns have been using forever. Once there, they have a few options.

Option A: Ignore Hun troops coming down the road and go for Hun cities. This would give us the best chance of wiping out the Huns, as they'll ignore our armies and send troops around toward Cappadocia. This runs the danger of our defense at Capp being overrun and us getting hammered hard. It's the highest risk/reward option. I'm not really fond of it, but it does have style points.

Option B: Have the armies kill some/most of the Hun troops coming down the road and heal as necessary. Send the troops from outside Cappadocia up the road once they clean out the current infestation. They can catch stragglers and help the armies reach the Huns a few turns before our victory.

Option C: Have the armies play defensive offense against the Huns, killing all troops coming down the line and healing as necessary. Make them our forward defense, but find a good spot as a killing ground and don't try to press forward. After the current nest of Huns is cleared, move that army back into Asia Minor a bit and have it play zone defense as necessary. This is conservative, a bit, but we have only ~15 turns left to go and I'd hate to see us overreaching unnecessarily. This would be my first choice. Don't take it to the Huns...just kill what they send at us.

The army up near the Ostrogoths should be able to kill as many as 4 cities by the end of the game. In my estimation, it will need two turns to siege a city, as the AI likes to have multiple defenders (like 5 or so) in elimination games, so it will require two turns to hit a city, one or two turns to heal, and then a turn, possibly, to move to the next city. I did this for style and revenge, as we're pretty safe in Europe and have more troops coming that are semi-pointless.

Christianity is due in two. We can finish either of the churches (I don't remember which is better) probably about the end of Rubberjello's turn, so Charis should get a few turns of GA to end the game.

Roster:
Justus_II -- retired
Arathorn -- retired
Rubberjello -- UP NOW!!
Charis -- probably will get to finish the win
Aggie -- one turn only?

Arathorn
 
Arathorn-Great turns, and some sweet revenge :hammer: against the Sassinids/Huns/RNG! I like the concept of Plan A, but with the number of Hun units probably choking the roads, I think it would turn into choice B anyway. As far as wonders, Hagia is -1 unhappy in all cities, and doubles churches (we dont have any/many yet, but our bigger cities could build one to get rid of entertainers completely, especially during the GA), St. Peters is like ToA, free temple in all cities, but most cities already have one. I would go for Hagia Sophia (also because it IS the Byzantine church), actual cost is only 400s so I think it should finish fairly soon. So we might only get the beginnings of our GA in, oh well. I can't believe it from where we were a few turns ago, but now I'm almost wishing the VP requirement was higher! We could really take it to them! (Of course, we haven't seen any warlords yet, so maybe I will just be quiet now....)
 
Actually, we have *seen* warlords. I did, at least. The Visigoths, for reasons best known to the AI, sailed a warlord up near an Ostrogoth city, taking about three turns when he could have walked there in one. The tech is definitely out there. Vandals finished SoG a LONG time ago, so they should have a number of WLs running around.

But we've not had to fight warlords (yet). I've seen nothing from the Huns or the Ostrogoths to indicate that they have iron, so nothing other than horses, spears, and raiders, all of whom die pretty easily. They come in vast numbers, but they're not so tough with the killing ground set-up I was handed.

Both churches are fine. Once we get spices hooked up, pretty much all our happiness worries will be over, except for the occasional marketplaceless big city or island town. The culture of temples might be nice and it's, ironically, our smallest cities that are fighting happiness problems the most. Temple = -1 happy, too. All-in-all, it just doesn't matter.

I do know that it's 400 shields vs. 600 shields. It's just that we still have 20-some turns left to Justinian's, so about 9 to a BIG church (I didn't check exactly). Charis should see the GA, but he won't get a lot of turns to play with it.

I'm surprised West Rome has held up as well as it has. I was very much worried it'd collapse too early and we'd be fighting all the European barbs, too. Plus, the Visigoths have performed much better under the AI than I would've imagined, given the difficulty of that position in terms of production. We helped, of course, by hamstringing the Ostrogoths early, but our Visi allies have been doing wonders against the Vandals, too, which is most impressive.

It's in cruise control now. It'd take a combination of incredibly horrid luck and very poor play to lose now. I just don't see it happening.

Arathorn
 
Let's see here...
Kids in bed? Check
Wife safely asleep? Check
All evening chores done? Check
Turn game music off, slip in the Soundtrack from the movie Gladiator. Check
Turn that puppy up.
Let's Rock and crack some Barb heads!
*2 minutes later*
A pissed-off wife comes in and oh-so-gently reminds me to use my headphones.
Ooooopsss!!!!! Life is never easy for us wannabe world rulers!

Pre-turn. Wowza! Things are looking much, much better with the green menace gone. I don't change a thing.

IT Huns try out-flanking us, much to their regret as the Army ZOC takes a terrible toll. A Visigoth Warlord starts helping our HC Army in Ostrogoth-land.

466 (1) Start moving our armies north from the former Sassinid lands. 2 Hun Raiders and 2 Hun Horseman die without so much as a whimper (but no promotions for us), and the army up there didn't get a chance to heal this turn. There are still 3 Hun Raiders and a Horse trying to skirt our front lines up there (all are wounded). Our HC army takes 3 spears from the Ostro city of Thuruarakrs, and is mildly wounded. A 4'th spear appears. Worker arrives on spices, but is out of movement.

IT An ugly rash of peace breaks out. A-S and Franks sign peace. Franks and Celts sign peace. Franks and Vandals sign peace. Hmmm... the Huns are starting Justinian's Leadership? Ours is due in 20 turns, but the game will be over by then? No more Huns coming.

468 (2) We learn Christianity. Tech scaled back big time, and set for Byzantine Ingenuity (to reduce cost from W.Rome?) The only other choices were Siegecraft and Military Strategy, neither of which are very useful at this stage? Spice colony settled, and a round of city re-arranging ensues. I am undecided about building churches. The end of the game is no near that there is no real payoff, and with 7 luxes now our cities are starting to look halfway happy. If the game was going to last longer I would definitely build churches. As it is, I simply go for more Heavy Cavs to put the hurt on the Ostros and Huns.
The Ostrogoth city of Thuruarakrs is razed by our HC army after killing another spear and a wounded Raider. Armies still heading north towards Hun Caucuses Highway. Clean up the Hun mess in Eastern Turkey. Trade maps around (every turn).

IT More Hun Raiders appear. Our Visi Warlord pal got slaughtered by an Ostro Raider. But ---- Who would have ever thunk it??? We got a bunch of "We love the Empress" days in our core cities!!! Something undreamed of during our early years.

470 (3) There is a Furs in the Ostrogoth-land that would provide our 8'th Lux, but at this point protecting a colony and the road would be a nightmare. I will send a Legion and worker up towards there anyway though.

IT Western Rome and Ostros make peace. A bunch of Huns are met on the Hun Highway. It is definitely going to be swimming upstream there.

472 (4) What the Sam Hill is going on?????? F4 shows that we are now at peace with the Ostrogoths. It also shows we have an active Peace Treaty with them for 19 turns. Since when can Western Rome sign a Peace for us? Is this a bug in the game? Our Heavy Cav Army is parked right next to their Capitol. Now this IS a pickle. I assume our honorable rules doesn't take into account a game bug like this. Ultimately, I decide our Reputation is already trashed because our Visigoth alliance was canceled without our consent (and they look pissed at us!) I redeclare war, and sign with our trustworthy allies the Visigoths an ROP, MA vs the Ostros, and MA vs. the Huns. Our HC army kills 3 spears at Rheidhgotaland (Ostro Capital), while only getting a couple of wounds. An elite Legion attacks a Hun raider, and another Leader is created. He goes to form a HC Army. Our Caucasus armies plow through and kill 2 Hun Raiders and 1 Horse.


(IT) More Huns appear.

474 (5) Armies still moving North, and have just about seen the last of the mountains. The usual 2 to 3 Huns near Capadocia die without a fuss. HC Army in Ostrogothland heals.

IT Plague strikes Singidunum (Move forces out). Like parting a sea, the Huns desert the road in droves to let our Armies pass by.

476 (6) Rhedhgotaland is razed after killing 3 more spears. Our Eastern Armies are finally near the first Ostro and Hun cities.

IT Vandals start Justinian's Leadership

478 (7) One of our Eastern armies stops off at Cnivastavs (Ostro) and kills 3 Spears, but a 4'th is revealed. Another army splits off towards the Huns, while the third army head towards another Ostro city. Our other HC Army rests this turn, while our 5'th army heads to join it. Time to make a decision about the Wonder city. Next turn it would hit 400 shields. Justinian's is 600, and we can't get it before the end of the game. So the choice is between Hagia Sophia and St. Peter's Basilica, both of which will trigger our Golden Age. Pretty much a 50-50 shot, the way I see it, so I choose the Hagia for historically accurate purposes.

IT ROME EVERLASTING!!!
Hagia Sophia completes, and our Golden Age begins.
GPT jumps by almost 100. Mostly see a group of Ostrogoths headed for Vizi lands.

480 (8) Raze Cnivastavs (Ostro) after killing another spear. We see our first Hun Warlord(s) as we approach their homeland. Start attacking the Ostro city of Hreidmare and kill 2 Spears.

IT Bunch of Ostro Raider movement towards the Visigoths. The Hun Warlords disappear back into the fog. The Hun attacks in the vicinity of Cappadocia have stopped altogether.

482 (9) Hopefully, the Huns are not going towards our few possessions in former Sassinid lands (rather than Cappadocia) I'll send our defender army to investigate. Kill 2 spears in the Ostro city of Alveis-Aoricvaurp and it is only defended by a wounded horse now. Kill 3 more spears at Hreidmare, and there is still another one showing! Attack our first Hun city and kill our first Hun Warlord at Ruse (and was rather grieviously wounded too!

484 (10) I am fairly certain that the Huns are recalling all their forces from the south and sending them back up and then West towards the Visigoths. Our cities should not have much threat from here-on-out. Plague is gone from Singidunum. Alveis-Aoricvaurp is razed easily. Ostros have 7 cities lost now. Kill 2 more spears at Hreidmare and a most welcome message appears!

We now have 33,145 VP compared to Western Romes 22,715. (I also settled 4 new cities this round, not that we have to worry about gold much anymore!)


The game minus the Ostrogoths (484 AD)
 
YES!!! The Ostrogoths have been removed! Three cheers for Rubberjello! Hip-hip-hooray! An ancient wound has been removed.

'Tis only fitting we end in our GA, too. At over 33,000 VPs, Charis will probably only get one or maybe two turns. And with five armies, we'd be invincible and could/would continue to roll over the barbarian tribes.

EXCELLENT!!!

Arathorn
 
Wow, talk about an excellent setup!! :hammer:
A rockin' turn, Rubberjello! Right call on the Ostrogoths, btw. But no it's not a bug, that's what a locked alliance with W.Rome will do for us. It looks like we'll actually win this game with our ally still intact?! :goodjob:

And "We love the Empress day!" and a Golden Age??
Whodduhthunkit?

Will end this puppy and do the screenshot tonight.
Charis
 
:goodjob: Rubberjello!

We have indeed restored Rome to it's former glory, and taught those filthy barbarians a lesson. And with a Golden Age to spare!

I am working on some thoughts/suggestions for this scenario, but I'm especially glad we were able to eliminate the Ostros, and keep our Locked War with them, as I think that should be included in the final version.
 
The only reason I wouldn't want a Locked War with the Ostrogoths is because it would put them in a Locked Alliance with someone else (probably the Huns).
 
Originally posted by Louis XXIV
The only reason I wouldn't want a Locked War with the Ostrogoths is because it would put them in a Locked Alliance with someone else (probably the Huns).
Couldn't you just make the Ostrogoths part of their own 'Locked Alliance' group in the editor? Or at least join them with the Sassanids, since the Huns should have the ability to declare on everyone.
 
Interested in your thoughts, Justus, when you have time to put them down.
 
Had turn '2' ended up being the dominant flavor of the game, I would say to keep the Ostrogoths free, but as it turns out, having Vizigoths and Franks as potential allies was sufficient, and the Ostrogoth presence was felt only a tiny amount compared to the Sassanid struggle.

I would recommend Ostrogoths by themselves in locked war with Rome (much like Greece vs Persia in Rise of Rome), so they can ally with or make war against other civs. This recommendation is for playing as Eastern Rome -- if it makes a big difference for W.Rome I would let that be the deciding factor. Not to minimize our very nice win, but I'll have to agree from the looks of it that W.Rome had the tougher task.

I'll also point out in hindsight that the initial 'lux' deal ally with WRome turned out to be not a huge deal, and in fact it somehow inadvertantly soiled our reputation. The *biggest* factors/strategies were:
- Allying with Vizigoths (***)
- Going on early offense, not playing a defensive game (***)
- Taking the early advantage and parlaying into leader/army (**)
- Excellent management of cash/happiness/trading (**)
- Getting lux online asap (**)
- Franks alliance (*)
- Being of actual help to W.Rome so that they lasted and kept some pressure off us (*)

Charis
 
Rome Everlasting:

*Ostrogoths-Definitely should be locked war vs. East Rome, whether independent or allied w/Sassanids or Huns (or Vandals?). I do kind of like the idea of keeping the Huns on their own, so they can attack everyone. But definitely, I think having them "in play" as an ally is too much advantage, especially with them adjacent to the Visigoths, you can build too big a buffer zone, effectively insulating the European half of the empire. (Or, marching the starting legions and allying both Goths to overrun the Vandals early).

*Harbors-I think there needs to be a harbor in Asia Minor, probably in Nicomedia or Ephesus, maybe at the expense of the one in Alexandria. Basically the only connection from the Capital to the majority of the empire was through Alexandria, which didn't make sense. If Caesarea or Antioch fall, or even if that road is pillaged, the core is cut in half, and depending on which sources are connected, we could lose horses/iron for one half or the other, not to mention all trade being cut with the capital no longer connected. Now I think that should be a concern/risk, if Constantinople falls, or some cities in asia minor, but it should not be dependent on Egypt. I do think the luxuries should be tied to that 'line of communication', so if you wanted to get rid of the harbor in Alexandria, it would still force you to protect the coastal road, but for more logical reasons. And it allows for the strategic decision to surrender Egypt and the luxuries without cutting off your core from the capital.

*AI Settling- I assume this is related to the Locked War aspect, but it seems the AI wandered around a lot more before settling their early cities. It affected the Franks and Vizigoths also, so I'm not sure what else may be influencing it, but they wasted a lot of time and energy before settling down, which in turn delays when they can put together effective attacks. I would recommend at least for the Rome Everlasting version that the AI 'pre-settles' a few more of their migrants at start (i.e. replace a few migrants with size-one towns, to include their free spear defenders). Just gives them a little more stable foundation. The Franks had not settled a single city (other than their starting one) by turn 7 or 8, thats a lot of wasted production and research.

*Minor point, but why is there a courthouse in Constantinople? I noticed it before we started, then forgot all about it until we were really desperate, but it's unneeded, and a 1gpt drain.

*ZoC- I hadn't given this much thought in reading the unit descriptions, but I actually really liked it when I saw it in action. Especially vs. the Huns, who would try to 'flow' around my garrisons or legions, and I racked up quite a few hps, making it valuable. I also thought that the archer ought to have defensive bombard, although we didn't build many(any?), mostly because they do now in the standard game, and would make them a useful addition to a defended town.

Fall of Rome in General
*City Count-I know at this point it is probably not possible in the game engine, but some way of tracking how many cities each civ lost, not just the leader (loser?), would be VERY helpful. Maybe one of the F8 alternate screens, which list VPs or Power by civ, could list this in the side panel.

*Dromons-Same shield cost as galleys, so there is no cost to upgrade, should probably cost 40 (we never got that far, but it just struck me as odd). Also, should they even be available for the non-Roman civs? (i.e. we built some as Vandals, I could see galleys, but Dromons?).

*Heavy Cav-OK, this is more just a style point, but I think the Roman (and maybe Sassinid) Heavy Cav should use the Ancient Cavalry graphics, not the Keshik, just doesn't look Civilized enough to fight off the barbarians with mangy horsemen. I know the Romans certainly hired a lot of Germanic cav, but the Cataphracts of the east were better armed and armored. Maybe even rename them, or keep them at Heavy Cav and name the barb version Mounted Warlords or something.

*General question about techs-It seems strange that all the barb tribes are locked out of Fortification, and all 2nd level techs, except the player. Are we the only "enlightened" barbarians, that can understand advanced concepts?

*Huns. Due to the tech issue, this means the AI Huns can't get to Heavy Cav, which seems tailor-made for them, even under AI control. By the time they get Warlords headed to the front, the scenario would be over. I didn't see the Huns putting much pressure on the European civs in any of the games, whereas allowing them to get some form of heavy cav might better replicate them sweeping out of the steppes and driving deep into Europe?

*Armies Rock! (Actually I think this has been my comment on every conquest SG I have played!). It really seemed that getting to 2-3 armies is really the "tipping point" at which we were in control of the game again. Using a Legion army on defense vs. the Huns made me feel much more secure, and they were able to operate more or less independently in taking down the Sassanids. Don't get me wrong, I really like the stronger armies, but I do wish the AI would make better use of them, and wouldn't be so afraid to attack them either.

Overall, great scenario, more depth and excitement than I had thought from reading the description, the 8th City factor really adds a lot of tension and fun as a barb player, but also rewarded us as the Romans for being aggressive early, which is a good thing.
:thanx: Many thanks to Gobi Bear for the design, for joining us in our SGs to get a new perspective, and for allowing us to playtest Rome Everlasting! :goodjob:
 
Not to minimize our very nice win, but I'll have to agree from the looks of it that W.Rome had the tougher task.

I have to entirely disagree. They have NEVER been under any kind of a serious threat. Their worry is about whether they can completely destroy all of Europe. They've been complaining about the Huns as their main concern from about 20 turns in. That's a cakewalk.

Look at how their Eastern Rome faired -- it's lost many cities -- maybe as many as 4. Look at how many cities our Western Rome lost -- one or maybe two? Western Rome, according to this measure, too, has the easier row to hoe.

If somebody would care to play my first turn again, we can see whether Cappadocia is as lucky. If not, our "cruise" to victory could have easily been a loss. Was Western Rome ever threatened? At all?

Finally, for all their complaints about lack of production and how Eastern Rome has it easier, the Western Romans have better land, better cities, and more shield/gold production power than Eastern Rome. Check out F1 to see if I'm right.

All-in-all, I think it clear that Eastern Rome is more challenging. The people playing this one just complained less.

Arathorn
 
We've never been under any serious threat because we took the war to the enemy early and got pretty lucky- had Caesar Augustus' campaign against the two Celtic cities in Scotland gone worse, we'd have lost- or at least been very hard pressed to keep- 3 cities in England.
 
@Justus: Err...everyone has access to any tech (theoretically even the Romans to Barbarism, at least they can steal it ;) ), you just cannot trade anything above Construction. Have seen the Celts built one of the Churches, and HC from pretty much everyone.
The one thing that seems strange is that a human 'Barbarian' can trade with Rome for the 2nd era techs, while a human 'Roman' cannot do so.

:thumbsup: Good analysis otherwise, and good challenging Scenario, Gobi. Though I don't think the average occasional player would enjoy this, so I see why it wasn't included in c3c.

Edited because of cross-posting:

WRome vs. ERome
I think nobody ever denied that ERome is much tougher for the 1st half of the game. Even in a worst case scenario, WRome would lose the 3 British cities, but signing the Franks against the other German tribes will take care of any other immediate threat. The only thing to complain about is that the situation won't get much better. WLTKDs? 7 Luxuries? A GA? Building Wonders?
And your ally is about the biggest problem: Either ER collapses too soon (won't happen with WR), or it wins...ERome controlls more VP locations, and starts with a wonder; if a WRome player manages to kill off his neighbors while they have only spears and raiders (=no VPs), he's likely to lose the VP race once ER starts killing HCs.
 
Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
@Justus: Err...everyone has access to any tech (theoretically even the Romans to Barbarism, at least they can steal it ;) ), you just cannot trade anything above Construction. Have seen the Celts built one of the Churches, and HC from pretty much everyone.
The one thing that seems strange is that a human 'Barbarian' can trade with Rome for the 2nd era techs, while a human 'Roman' cannot do so.


OK, maybe I was confused because of our inability (in the Vandal game) to trade/offer those techs to the other barb tribes, and I don't remember seeing any HCav from them, but maybe that was just how that game progressed during the turns I had. That makes more sense then.

On your second point, I assume you mean that for example, in our East Rome game we couldn't pry Byz Ingenuity from West Rome for any amount of tech/money, even though it was "on the table". Seems very strange, as a barb all 2nd level techs were cheap, but as Romans they are very expensive. Is this a side-effect of the Flavoring? (Gobi?). If so, it should be corrected, they should cost about the same for everyone, if they are expensive techs for a reason, then make the barbs pay highly for them also. If anything, it should be cheaper to trade with your Roman ally. (This may be a case where the difficulty level AI-trade ratio works against the alliance).

EDIT: Charis, how long are you going to keep us in suspense?? We did win, didn't we??? ;)

Also, I'm hesitant to say which of the two halves is harder, until I've had a chance to play the other side (which does look intriguing). I do have to agree with Arathorn, however, we had our core threatened from very early on, much sooner than I would have thought, and I thought we were being agressive. Certainly East Rome has more long-term potential with the luxuries, but even they are connected by a precarious thread (see my other post). If Cappadocia falls, our core is overrun, if Caesarea falls, our core is cut off from lux and the capital. It could very easily have gone the other way.
 
Re: Barb - Roman trades

The 2 Romes can and will trade; if they don't it's simply a question of the price - in my (half - played) WR solo game, I traded several techs with ER.
WhatI meant is:
If you play e.g Vandals, you can buy the advanced Techs from one of the Romes, but only trade it to Sassis and the other Rome.
If you play one of the Romes, you cannot trade anything above Construction to the Barbs; pretty important, since you hardly have something else to offer...
 
Originally posted by Arathorn
All-in-all, I think it clear that Eastern Rome is more challenging. The people playing this one just complained less.
Gee, fun succession game - any time I try to talk about it I get labelled a dictator, teacher, or complainer ;) ;)

I'm currently 8 turns in on my Eastern Rome solo game, so I'll post my thoughts on who I think might be more challenging in one of these threads after it's completed.

Perhaps one reason the AI does so poorly as the E. Romans can be found in the Editor. Under 'Build Often', the East has Def. Units, Naval Units, Happiness, Trade and Culture. In comparison, W. Rome keeps it nice and simple: Off. Units, Def. Units, Growth, Production.
 
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