Recovering from Last Place after Expansion Phase, Step by Step

Good job, zersees. This is one of those things that makes me not quit games where I have three cities and a Spearman.


Of course, I always end up losing anyway, but it's the effort that counts. :D
 
Trying to make this map as well. So far so good. If americans was weaker then any of u 3 other neibors why u assault Russia. :) I know the answer. I have choose to attack first german while they were with conflict with russia and get 3 they towns as well as build 2 more on a place where Russia rize one. Then I bought everything up to replacable parts because golden age give me a lot of money. No I start assault on Americans. They have luck of moderm units. They can build them but they can not upgrade them. With artillery I already take 3 of their towns without any visible resistanse. So far I have lost only 2 cavaleries on they infantry. Will see 1020AD.
 
Originally posted by zerksees
Gogf PM'd a Conquests 1520 AD savegame to me.

Gogf - I spent about 15 minutes reviewing your save and it looks good to me so far. It is interesting that the English and Arabs are out of the game in your game - not sure what made that happen. It appears you have 3 more modern age techs than I did at that time so things are going fairly well in that area, though I had a score of 726 vs. your 693. I don't think the score difference is a big deal. You are in the game and power is rising - that is good.

Thanks for looking at it :). Since then, I have captured Rome (I'm not sure if I had at the point I had given you the save). I have also conquered a good deal of Germany.
 
Very good job. I think it is more realistic this way. You know starting a game that has already been started. You went in there not knowing what to expect and turnded it into a winning situation.:worship: :worship: :worship:
 
How about a Deity progression game analysis, so we can see just how to win at tougher levels. Of course, you get to pick the settings and start from 4000 BC. :D
 
That was an amazing read, zerksees. 144 hours, wow! I don't like the feel of the smaller maps, but I also don't like how long a game takes on the larger maps :crazyeye:

Again, amazing game, I will have to re-read it again sometime:goodjob:

Mad Hatter
 
zerksees, what is the highest level you have attempted a comeback from? Have you tried without exploits?
 
Sir Bugsy said:
zerksees, what is the highest level you have attempted a comeback from? Have you tried without exploits?

Comeback like this? Regent. This game is one and the other game in my sig is the other. I may try one again some day, but lately I have been playing games to submit to the high score HOF.

I am not sure what you mean by 'exploits'. If you mean the capital/forbidden palace rank exploit, then no, I have not tried it without that. Knowing it is there makes it hard to resist.
 
Thanks zerksees. I have been far behind on Diety, and never caught up. I wondered if you had any success. The reason I asked about playing without exploits is that the "palace far away" tactic is no longer allowed in the GOTM and most other competitive games.

Keep up the good work!
 
Thank you for writing this! That example puts all of my thoughts on how "far behind" I am in perspective :D
 
Thanks a lot for your great article. I learned a lot from your article, and after having read it several times I decided to try to play the game myself.

I did rather well, I think, as I ended as number 3 with about 1.700 P, but far behind the winner India (about 5.000 P) and Germany (about 4.000 P). Nobody else survived till 2050. I have never played at a higher level than regent, and still haven’t obtained a victory. So I certainly don’t have your skills.

If you’re interested you can of course get a copy of my game, but please don’t say yes just to be polite. I guess many players already have been so interested to hear your comments on their versions of the Japan game, and you most likely got other things to do.

Let me just tell about my experiences of the game:

My strategy from the beginning was certainly not to win, but just to survive till 2050 with a small, but modern and well functioning country. The final score wouldn’t be so important.

It was of crucial importance to avoid war. Any of my neighbours could easily destroy me so I:

- Didn’t declare war

- Didn’t accept military alliances and mutual protection pacts

- Accepted paying tribute to the other countries

And more important: I started buying tech from the AI, one from each of my big neighbours every 20th turn, and always for gold per turn. I made very little research myself. In this game it became quite obvious to me that if you want a “non attack treaty” then the best thing to do is to buy tech for gold per turn. Why did Germany declare war on China, France and Russia all the time, but not on the awfully weak Japan? Of course, because a declaration of war on Japan would mean a loss of an income. Germany would have given a tech for nothing, and the AI seem to hate that.

Right of passage and trade with resources and lux for gold per turn might also have a certain peace preserving effect, but not nearly as strong as tech buying for gold per turn. A mutual protection pact will of course preserve peace with one country, but you might soon be involved in a war in which you have no interest, and you run the risk of becoming a deal breaker if you’re having an ongoing trade with one or more other countries. MPP is a perfect trouble maker!

But besides buying tech for gold per turn I saw one more possibility which I believe you overlooked. You write that Japan in 590 had no resources to trade. It’s not correct. Japan had horses. Only one source, right, but it’s possible to sell your only source of a resource. I sold my horses to Russia for education, next time I got economics, next time something else. Japan was far away from military tradition, which allows cavalry, and Japan doesn’t build knights but samurais, so I really didn’t miss the horses.

At a certain point of time when reaching the industrial age I had become scientific equal with Egypt, and could give them medicine in return for steam power, though I also had to give them some gold. Fortunately I had coal, and I also “found a new source of oil”, which became very important later in the game.

America and China became weaker and weaker militarily so in the industrial age I could concentrate on buying tech from Russia and Germany. That was very fortunate since I couldn’t afford more than 2 industrial age tech every 20th turn. I chose to research nationalism myself. For one or any reason the AI always demand an exorbitant price for exactly this tech.

As one country after the other was getting destroyed a new possibility came to my mind: Contact a country which for sure won’t survive for more than 2-5 turns, and buy a tech for gold per turn. After few turns the seller is gone, and you have got the tech for almost nothing. Unfortunately I almost always reacted too late, so I only succeeded in buying amphibious war from Rome for about 50 gold per turn. 1-2 turns later Rome was destroyed.

About year 1600 China was the first to use a nuclear bomb, and was immediately punished awfully by the rest of the countries (except Japan, of course!). 1-2 turns later China was destroyed.

Things went well for the democratic Japan. The permanent wars between the other countries lead to many destroyed cities which allowed me to expand with new settlements. I had settlers ready to utilize a chance for new cities before the AI. To facilitate the wars I was generous to give a ROP, though I most often had to pay. A one-sided ROP agreement should be an option!

The military began to be decent in both size and quality. Each city was defended by at least 5 infantries and one artillery, later mechanised infantries and radar artillery, and I also had many tanks and bombers. Most cities had civil defence. I didn’t take for granted that an attack on me was impossible, but now Japan wouldn’t be such an easy victim.

Was this peaceful strategy boring, you may ask? No, the permanent wars between the other countries gave me all the entertainment I could ask for. Especially early in the game I had fun seeing strong countries fighting each other endlessly but ignoring the weak Japan.

So about 1750 things went wrong, and for such a silly reason. I had got one extra source of coal, but only Mongolia was a potential buyer. They offered 180 gold in cash, not so much, but better than nothing. But somehow the trade route was destroyed before the end of the ongoing coal trade, and I now had the reputation as a deal breaker. Result: No tech for gold per turn.

I got really upset about the situation because I felt I was completely innocent. I didn’t destroy the trade route so how could I be blamed? Maybe you could explain: If I sell a resource or a lux in return for cash or a tech, and the trade route then is destroyed – for reasons being beyond my control - is it then the intention of the game that I must be held responsible and suffer a ruined reputation? Or do we have a bug which somehow should be corrected?

Maybe we could imagine that in the above mentioned situation Mongolia could contact Japan saying: “I have lost the deliverance of coal from you. I know it’s not your mistake but I suppose you as a gentleman are willing to compensate me. “

Then Japan could offer Mongolia something which could create balance, either a cash payment or gold per turn.

Well, I could no longer be sure that Germany wouldn’t attack me. I had a ROP with Germany and I traded lux, but it wasn’t enough.

The German war declaration came in 1850 while Bismarck was still in war with Russia, who was getting weaker and weaker. Japan was for first time in history in war! I was terrified but the outcome wasn’t so serious. Bismarck razed one newly established city, but as it didn’t yet have any city improvements the economic loss wasn’t so serious, and I had the luck to take revenge. One of the German cities was completely surrounded by Japanese territory, and I attacked this city with all I had, also weaker units than tanks. And my great luck was that a samurai was able to give a German mechanised infantry the final death blow, and so I was in golden age. I razed the city, and got one extra source of aluminium. Two German stealth bombers were destroyed. After 5 turns Bismarck was willing to negotiate peace, and I could even collect a small amount in cash from him.

I used my golden age to complete research on nuclear power and miniaturization. And I built several new cities on former Russian territory. A golden age is a great thing but it’s difficult to get used to normal conditions again!

About 1925 Russia was destroyed, and I was now alone on the continent with Germany. Really bad. Bismarck was furious with me despite ongoing trades with lux and a ROP. So where would he go next time with all his aggression? Not so many choices since India was alone on the other continent and stronger militarily than both Japan and Germany.

So I decided to break my principles. I signed a MPP with Germany. I knew that it soon would lead to war with India, but I supposed that a war with a country on another continent would be more harmless. And I also supposed that if Gandhi would invade our continent the German modern amour would do the work.

That was a serious mistake. When the war came Gandhi wasn’t able to conquer any of my cities, right, but he attacked me awfully with stealth attackers from a former Mongolian city – Paoting - located on a small island close to our continent. One city on former Chinese territory at size 25 with all improvements from temple to nuclear power plant was reduced to size 1, and all improvements were destroyed. And I was completely defenceless as I didn’t have a navy. My anti air strike, which almost all my cities had, proved to be almost impotent against stealth attackers.

I foolishly decided to renew my MPP with Germany, but not next time. I think I now had been in war with India for about 30 turns. I was in anarchy and my cities in disorder. One city was even hit by a nuclear power plant melt down. Fortunately Gandhi was willing to negotiate peace, but I had to pay about 300 gold.

So the result of the mutual protection pact: Two rivals being furious with me instead of one plus a serious setback in my development. I have for sure signed the last MPP for ever.

I could have handled a war with Germany. My cities were defended strongly enough, and I would have had many chances to damage Germany.

I know you’ll say that I should choose another political system than democracy. I think I know the arguments concerning war weariness, but this is a principle of mine: I believe in democracy in the real world, so I also play democracy in CIV. Nothing to do with me on that point!

About 1990 both Germany and India declared war on me again, and this time it was even more serious as Gandhi had now succeeded in getting cities on our continent, partly through new settlement, and partly by having conquered a few German cities. I lost two cities of which one was razed. However, I was able to get peace with both countries after a few turns. This time I remembered to turn on “manage citizen mod” for all cities so I avoided civil disorder.

I now completed research on synthetic fibres, and that was the end of my research. Not spending money on research allowed me to buy lux from India and to produce modern armour like crazy! Turn after turn my cities produced modern amour, except cities where there still were improvements left to be build.

Germany was soon in war with India again, and Gandhi was really tough with nuclear bomb attacks. The German road net work was in a horrible condition, and I noticed that Bismarck very often lost access to some resources so he was beginning to attack with guerrillas and defend with riflemen, units which can be produced without resources.

I was now militarily stronger than Germany, but believe it or not: Bismarck was now a mad man, a lunatic. Poor German people! He declared war on Japan in 2010 when still being in war with India. In this war he was not even close at conquering any Japanese city. So I said to myself: OK, the idiot asked for terror, he’ll get it! In the next 10 turns I conquered about 15 German cities, and I decided to be really bad, so I razed almost all of them, except Leipzig which had SETTI programme and a former Chinese city which had Leonardo’s workshop. I even razed Berlin, despite the fact that it had cure for cancer! I know that it’s a childish feeling, but I tried to imagine Bismarck’s face when he was informed by his military advisor that his Capital was burned down to the ground!

None of the German cities were defended by more than 3 units, and in no case were all of these mechanised infantries. Few cities had radar artillery, and for instance Berlin had just 3 riflemen as defenders.

I wonder why it this time took 10 turns before Bismarck was willing to negotiate peace since it was obvious that he impossibly could gain anything. I contacted him every turn but he wasn’t willing to accept my request for an audience. He could have got peace whenever he liked.

I was in fact happy when he finally accepted a peace treaty because I was now in anarchy, and I feared that Gandhi would misuse the situation, and declare war on Japan.

In 2035 India and Germany signed a peace treaty. I created a few more cities and rush built cultural improvements. I gifted incense to India to secure peace and furs to Germany; the gift to Germany was meant as a humiliation of Bismarck. I wanted to demonstrate that Japan could allow herself to be generous, even with an enemy. Yes, a childish feeling, but CIV tends to be so lifelike that you sometimes really believe that you communicate with a real human being!

I have some concluding remarks and questions:

Groobz: What did you do till 590 AD to keep good relationships with your strong neighbours? Did you also buy tech for gold per turn? Anyway, it was great that you never broke any deals – as far as I can see – because then I believe the game in fact had been lost.

Is buying a tech for gold per turn always a perfect “non attack treaty”? My experiences say yes, but couldn’t we imagine an AI country thinking: “Yes, I have sold chemistry to Japan for 25 gold per turn, but nevertheless I’ll now declare war on them. My economic loss won’t be very big, and I’ll get some nice cities with minimal military losses”. Such a strategy could make sense, especially if there are only few turns left before the concerned tech is fully paid, but I have never seen an AI country practice this strategy. We could also imagine an AI country being completely unwilling to sell tech for gold per turn because they have spotted the potential tech buyer as an easy victim. But I haven’t seen this happen either. AI are always willing to sell tech for gold per turn, provided, of course, that you have a good reputation.

The peaceful strategy I practised obviously has its limits. It was possible for me to survive with a nice country but I couldn’t win. Being number 3 was a great result for me, but I know that many of you are not satisfied with less than a victory. So you can forget everything about my strategy!

Through all the game Japan remained culturally weak. I always play with the “allow cultural conversion” on option but in this game it was probably an advantage that this option was off. I did build a lot of cultural improvements but never enough to impress the other countries.

For a long period I stopped playing accelerated production games because I experienced that if I fell behind economically, militarily and technologically then I really fell behind! On the other hand I now realise that accelerated production allows you to come back in the game again, if you can manage to survive through diplomacy.

Well, that’s all for now. Thanks again to you, Xerksees, for your very interesting article. And also many thanks to Groobz for the interesting challenge you gave us.
 
Wow. :eek: Thanks for bringing another perspective to this thread. :) I think it is good to show that there is more than one way to “recover from last place after expansion phase”.

I was interested to see that you applied some of the good and not so good strategies I employed. I would like to add a few comments on your game.


KarstenL said:
In this game it became quite obvious to me that if you want a “non attack treaty” then the best thing to do is to buy tech for gold per turn. Why did Germany declare war on China, France and Russia all the time, but not on the awfully weak Japan? Of course, because a declaration of war on Japan would mean a loss of an income. Germany would have given a tech for nothing, and the AI seem to hate that.
Another factor I notice is paying tribute. It seems a bully would make the rounds, asking every civ for a tribute, and the first one to resist became their target. I am not sure if this applied in your game.


KarstenL said:
MPP is a perfect trouble maker!
Amen


KarstenL said:
But besides buying tech for gold per turn I saw one more possibility which I believe you overlooked. You write that Japan in 590 had no resources to trade. It’s not correct. Japan had horses. Only one source, right, but it’s possible to sell your only source of a resource. I sold my horses to Russia for education, next time I got economics, next time something else. Japan was far away from military tradition, which allows cavalry, and Japan doesn’t build knights but samurais, so I really didn’t miss the horses.
An excellent observation, and indeed one I did overlook.


KarstenL said:
As one country after the other was getting destroyed a new possibility came to my mind: Contact a country which for sure won’t survive for more than 2-5 turns, and buy a tech for gold per turn. After few turns the seller is gone, and you have got the tech for almost nothing.
A good strategy, but I think you get a rep hit for this since you were not able to keep up your end of the bargain. I am not saying don’t do it, just be aware of the possible consequence.


KarstenL said:
So I decided to break my principles. I signed a MPP with Germany.

That was a serious mistake.
How ironic that the MPP with Germany gave you problems too.


KarstenL said:
I know you’ll say that I should choose another political system than democracy. I think I know the arguments concerning war weariness, but this is a principle of mine: I believe in democracy in the real world, so I also play democracy in CIV. Nothing to do with me on that point!
Democracy makes sense if you aren’t planning a lot of wars. Also, you can address the war weariness by using tactics that minimize unit loss, increasing luxury slider, keeping wars short, etc. I liked democracy in Civ for a while, but I don’t feel it important to apply my political ideals to Civ – I just play whatever government fits the situation best.


KarstenL said:
I was now militarily stronger than Germany, but believe it or not: Bismarck was now a mad man, a lunatic. Poor German people! … So I said to myself: OK, the idiot asked for terror, he’ll get it! In the next 10 turns I conquered about 15 German cities, and I decided to be really bad, so I razed almost all of them, except Leipzig which had SETTI programme and a former Chinese city which had Leonardo’s workshop. I even razed Berlin, despite the fact that it had cure for cancer! I know that it’s a childish feeling, but I tried to imagine Bismarck’s face when he was informed by his military advisor that his Capital was burned down to the ground!
Civ can have this effect on people. This is what the game writers wanted IMO.


KarstenL said:
Is buying a tech for gold per turn always a perfect “non attack treaty”?
I don’t think so. Offhand I can’t recall a case where the AI did this, but I can see one AI offering a tech or needed resource to another AI for a military alliance against the human or another AI.


KarstenL said:
The peaceful strategy I practised obviously has its limits. It was possible for me to survive with a nice country but I couldn’t win. Being number 3 was a great result for me, but I know that many of you are not satisfied with less than a victory. So you can forget everything about my strategy!
If you had employed the strategy from 4000 BC you might have been able to win as you could have grabbed more land at the start and had a lot more to work with.
 
'kin 'ell zerksees, amazing post.
Had me on the edge of my seat all the way through.
Again amazing and thanks very much for all your effort.
 
Dear Zerksees,

Thanks for your comments. I have now started a new game playing Japan with almost the same conditions and AI opponents so I’ll see if I can do it better this time.

Your question on paying tribute: Yes, I accepted paying tribute many times, but I cannot say if it made the aggressors go elsewhere because there were so many wars in the Japan game.

You mention that buying a technology for gold per turn from a dying country could damage my reputation. But how could that happen? As far as I understand I can only get a ruined reputation when the country I cheat tells it to the other countries, and it’s of course impossible when the cheated country is dead. Otherwise the AI countries should know about my ongoing trade. Do they?

The same if I very early in the game mistreat and cheat my neighbour awfully: I assume that if I can succeed in destroying him before he gets into contact with another country then nobody will ever learn about my bad character, and I will never suffer from a ruined reputation. Am I right?

I really believe that somebody should write a thorough article to War Academy on broken deals because it’s not as easy a subject as it seems to be at first glance.

Some situations are obvious:

- I join a military alliance, but sign a peace treaty few turns later.

- My partner in a mutual protection pact is attacked, but I sign a peace treaty with the attacker before my partner does, and when the MPP still is in effect.

- I buy a technology from another country in return for luxuries/resources/gold per turn, but declare war on the country soon after. Obvious, yes, however, the war declaration can take place as a result of a mutual protection pact, and so it seems a bit funny that your partner later teaches you moral as your declaration of war exclusively was to assist him, and not necessarily in your own interest!

But other cases are more subtle:

- I wrote in my article on my Japan game that I suffered a damaged reputation because I delivered coal to Mongolia in return for cash and soon after the trade route was destroyed – but not by me. Maybe Mongolia lost a harbour, but that wasn’t my mistake. So why should I be the one who was blamed?

- Let’s assume that an AI country demands coal from me as a tribute. I accept, but soon after the trade route is destroyed. Have I in this case broken a deal? In a way yes, because as far as I can understand the idea of a tribute is that you accept to give something in return for not being attacked militarily. And in this case I haven’t lived up to my part of the deal. But will such a case be noticed as a broken deal in the game?

- The same if I’m in war with a country, and now begin to negotiate the terms of a peace treaty with my enemy. He demands coal in return for peace, and I accept. Let’s again assume that the trade route soon after is destroyed. My enemy looses his coal, which I now can sell to somebody else. Am I then guilty of deal break?

And what about demanding tributes? I have noticed that when I accept paying a tribute then it takes some time before I must face a new demand from the same country. Maybe exactly 20 turns?

- Well, let’s assume that I ask for a tribute and get it, and then declare war in less than 20 turn. Is it a broken deal?

- I demand a tribute and get it, but I demand a new tribute from the same country less than 20 turns later. Would the mere act of demanding a new tribute so early be considered as a broken deal?

It would also be interesting to know if the computer players and the human player are treated equally when it comes to being punished for broken deals. I got this feeling that the AI countries can allow themselves to do whatever and still make new deals with each other.

Anyway, the Japan game shows how important it is for the player to take care of his reputation. If you’re weak your best chance of progressing is through trade and wise diplomacy, and it’s certainly getting more difficult if you have been careless about keeping your deals.

Best wishes,

Karsten
 
Wow, what a great thread!:)

It inspired me to go back to one of my old saves where I'd basically given the game up and see what I could do to turn it round. Looking at what I'd thought was hopeless, I realised that it was nothing like as desperate as this scenario. One the other hand I could see exactly what had got me into the predicament:
(1) Failing to pump out enough settlers in the expansion phase
(2) Wonder fixation
(3) Awful diplomacy

I found myself culturally strong, and technologically mediocre, but militarily pathetic and at war with 5 out of 7 of the AIs! The short time (a day) that I've spent on it since reading this thread, has allowed me to lure one of the other AIs to fight against two of my biggest threats, peace with two others, and inflicting serious punishment on the last one.

At the very least, this thread is an excellent reminder that at the more forgiving levels, a good start is NOT absolutely essential.
 
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