[Religion and Revolution]: New Calculation for Cargo (Ships and City Storage)

[KJ Jansson]

Sure, go ahead.

The main problem for all transport units is exactly "if Cargo-Slot available". Now each cargo slot can have only ONE type of goods.

Thus, now a ship has NO Cargo-Slot available, even if the ship transports only 1 unit of food in Slot 1 and 1 unit of wood in Slot 2. Such practically empty ship cannot load nothing at all because it has no Cargo-Slot available.

Now I'm looking the possibility to bypass this problem.

To my opinion, the optimal solution would be if each good (Food, Wood, etc.) will have a "weight" parameter.
For instance: 1 unit of Food = 1 kg, 1 unit of Wood = 10 kg, 10 units of Cotton = 1 kg, etc. All numbers in this post are absolutely symbolic.

Each "Slot for goods" (or "Hold" (Eng), "Schiffsraum" (De), "Cale" (Fr)") on the transport unit should be measured also in "Weight".

Thus, if 1 slot on galleon is equal 100 kg (or tonns), than we could load in this slot only 100 kg/tonns any goods in summary.

For units (Colonist, etc.) could be special cabins on each ship. Caravel -2 cabins, Galleon - 6 cabins, for instance.

Thus, the changes will be related only for goods transpotation.

This is one of possible solutions I'm thinking now.

 

[raystuttgart]

This is one of possible solutions I'm thinking now.

I have once been thinking about something similar.
(I even had a technical concept.)

But it is extremely difficult to implement.
(Not only DLL but also the part for Python / User-Interface.)

Also it would confuse many players.

Currently my tendency:
Better not do something like that.

 

[Robert Surcouf]

Sorry if I'm slightly off topic, but M07 implemented something like that in Dawn of a New Era. Have you already checked DoNE, KJ ?

 

[Androrc the Orc]

Sorry if I'm slightly off topic, but M07 implemented something like that in Dawn of a New Era. Have you already checked DoNE, KJ ?

As far as I know, sources for DoaNE were never released.

 

[raystuttgart]

As far as I know, sources for DoaNE were never released.

That is my knowledge, too.

 

[Robert Surcouf]

As far as I know, sources for DoaNE were never released.

Yes indeed. I guess M07 doesn't want do publish them. Don't ask me why?
Do you want me to ask him about these codes?

 

[raystuttgart]

Yes indeed. I guess M07 doesn't want do publish them. Don't ask me why?
Do you want me to ask him about these codes?

I guess, we might clarify first in our Mod-Development-Thread or in another new Thread if we want this feature or not.

 

[KJ Jansson]

Sorry if I'm slightly off topic, but M07 implemented something like that in Dawn of a New Era. Have you already checked DoNE, KJ ?

Thank you, Robert, for your information.

Really, rather similar feature is implemented in last version of Dawn of a New Era (DoNE). Here a screen from DoNE 2.00.

I bought in Europe small quantity of various goods and all of them are transported in two slots of my Carrack.



And here a list of goods on the carrack.



This feature is EXTREMALLY interesting for me and absolutely authentic.

I checked the xml files in DoNE 2.00 and found that M07 added a new tag in CIV4UnitInfos.xml:

			<SpecialCargo>NONE</SpecialCargo>
			<DomainCargo>NONE</DomainCargo>
			<iCargo>0</iCargo>
[B]			<iNewCargo>0</iNewCargo>[/B]
			<iRequiredTransportSize>1</iRequiredTransportSize>

If I understand correctly, this NewCargo tag is responsible for loading many YIELDS in one slot.

This solution is much more optimal that my proposal in this tread. Unnecessary to add "weight" of units, enough to add a new type slot with some features. Great work, M07!

It would be absolutely amazing if something similar we could implement in "Religion and Revolution".

 

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

I would like to continue discussion we started here in this thread.
(It sounds like this will become a big feature. )

By the way:

If we change Cargo-Calculation for Transport Units (Ships, Wagon Trains) we should also change Storageroom-Calculation for Cities.
(SPECIALBUILDING_WAREHOUSE)

Meaning:

The limit of goods calculated would not be for a single yield but for the sum of all yields.
(Of course the SPECIALBUILDING_WAREHOUSE would increase that limit.)

Attention:

1. Changes to Custom House functionaity required ! (Part: City-Storage)
2. Probably Changes to Europe Screen necessary ! (Part: Ship-Cargo)

 

[raystuttgart]

Spoiler :

It would be absolutely amazing if something similar we could implement in "Religion and Revolution".

Ok, you guys convinced me.
(My main concern was UserInterface, but this looks really good. )

Let us wait for feedback from the rest of the team.
If all others agree, let us ask Dazio and M07 if they would mind giving us this feature.

If we can have it, we could try to integrate this into Release 1.
(Also adding the part for City-Storage.)

If not, then this should become Release 2.
(There is some work behind something like that ...)

 

[KJ Jansson]

By the way:

If we change Cargo-Calculation for Transport Units (Ships, Wagon Trains) we should also change Storageroom-Calculation for Cities.
(SPECIALBUILDING_WAREHOUSE)

Meaning:

The limit of goods calculated would not be for a single yield but for the sum of all yields.
(Of course the SPECIALBUILDING_WAREHOUSE would increase that limit.)

This feature was already developed by NeseryozniyVET in his "Amount Resources and New City Capacity" mod. My comments you can read here.
You can also download and test how it works in "1492: Gold Rush" v.1.1 mod. This screen made from this mod.



As you see here we have a new calculation of Warehouse capacity. The game calculates the quantity of Wood + Tools + Guns = 20 + 50 + 50 = 120. The summary warehouse capacity is equal to 300. Food is outside of calculation.

The source codes are included. The mark "//VET NewCapacity" is related to new calculation of warehouse capacity. All credits for this mod to NeseryozniyVET who created an excellent basis that I only adapted to my needs in "1492:Global Colonization" mod.

 

[raystuttgart]

This feature was already developed by NeseryozniyVET in his "Amount Resources and New City Capacity" mod.

I know.
(The two of us had already talked about it about a year ago.)

However, we will need to do changes to Custom House logic, when adapting this.

 

[raystuttgart]

@team:

1. Should we do / plan New Calculation for Cargo (Ships and City Storage) ?
2. If yes, should we try to do it in Release 1 ?

My opinion:

1. Yes. I really think this would be a great and very realistic feature.
2. Depends on "Getting sources from DoaNE".

 

[Androrc the Orc]

I think it would be too complex to add in Release 1 (if we have to code it on our own, rather than get the DoaNE sources).

 

[agaro]

I suggest there is a volume limit operating here as well as a weight limit - so I don't think you could load 2,000 units of cotton onto a wagon. With all the new resources you guys are planning getting the ratios of all the items balanced will be pretty complex.

Also are you confident all the automated or assigned wagons will be able to handle this loading as well as the human player. Automated loading using this approach will take a lot more processing steps every turn and might slow the turns down too much if you have a lot of wagons.

 

[KJ Jansson]

I suggest there is a volume limit operating here as well as a weight limit - so I don't think you could load 2,000 units of cotton onto a wagon. With all the new resources you guys are planning getting the ratios of all the items balanced will be pretty complex.

Also are you confident all the automated or assigned wagons will be able to handle this loading as well as the human player. Automated loading using this approach will take a lot more processing steps every turn and might slow the turns down too much if you have a lot of wagons.

Hi agaro!

First of all, welcome to team!

A new system, when you can load in one wagon many goods is much better for authomatic transportation.

Now your Land transport unit (wagon) can transport only 2 type of goods because each wagon has only 2 slots. It means that you have to use 2 wagons if you need transport 3 or 4 various goods from city 1 to city 2. Or to create more complex algorithm for transportation when during the first run you transport goods 1 and 2, during run 2 - goods 3 and 4. The game perfectly understunds both variants.

Now, let's image, we have a new system, when you can load in your wagon all goods requied for transportation. One wagon will be enough to transport all goods in 1 run. Why the problems could appear for AI to understand this new algorithm?

Please, try "1492: Gold Rush" mod, where exactly such system is developped for Warehouse capacity. AI understands it perfectly.

@team:

1. Should we do / plan New Calculation for Cargo (Ships and City Storage) ?
2. If yes, should we try to do it in Release 1 ?

My opinion:

1. Yes. I really think this would be a great and very realistic feature.
2. Depends on "Getting sources from DoaNE".

I think it would be too complex to add in Release 1 (if we have to code it on our own, rather than get the DoaNE sources).

Yes, I agree with Andre. Let's wait results of Robert's discussion with his French colleagues.

 

[agaro]

Hi agaro!

First of all, welcome to team!

A new system, when you can load in one wagon many goods is much better for authomatic transportation.

Now your Land transport unit (wagon) can transport only 2 type of goods because each wagon has only 2 slots. It means that you have to use 2 wagons if you need transport 3 or 4 various goods from city 1 to city 2. Or to create more complex algorithm for transportation when during the first run you transport goods 1 and 2, during run 2 - goods 3 and 4. The game perfectly understunds both variants.

Now, let's image, we have a new system, when you can load in your wagon all goods requied for transportation. One wagon will be enough to transport all goods in 1 run. Why the problems could appear for AI to understand this new algorithm?

Please, try "1492: Gold Rush" mod, where exactly such system is developped for Warehouse capacity. AI understands it perfectly.

I will try 1492, but first a bit of clarification.

The human player can use 3 types of wagons:
- manually loaded wagons,
- assigned trade route wagons (restricted to some cargos and some cities),
- fully automated wagons (can take any cargo to any city - as long as cities set up to export / import of course).

As far as I am aware the AI player will always use fully automated wagons only.

My recommendation is that short-route, single-stage, multi-good shuttle wagons are most efficient. See this http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=382590

Under the new multiple goods in slot approach...

For manually loaded wagons: Human can load whatever they want to 200kgs, so will need less wagons. Good for them.

For Assigned wagons: These currently select cargos based on biggest economic value (size x unit value). So if they were to combine loads in one slot it would probably still be better to carry the max combined value, rather than max combined weight. But again these wagons would benefit from being able to carry multiple loads at once - again good for human.

For Fully Automated wagons: Fully automated wagons are more tricky to use efficiently because they can go to any city they like, they tend to travel empty some of the time, and they compete rather than cooperate - i.e. more than one wagon will try to do the same move order. Again these benefit from carrying multiple loads - but perhaps not as much as assigned wagons. You will get some very full efficient trips, but perhaps more empty slots also. You will probably use less wagons, but this will mean longer wait times.

Anyway I will try 1492 and then comment more.

 

[raystuttgart]

I suggest there is a volume limit operating here as well as a weight limit -

Totally agains "weight limit", sorry.

Please let us make this feature not even more complicated !

1. It will become much more complicated for us to implement generally.
2. It will be much more difficult to create good AI.
3. It will be much more difficult to understand and handle by Human. (less fun)
4. I don't see at all, why it is needed from a point of "authenticity".

Seriously, it really is a very bad idea to implemet too complicated things if not necessary.

Let us go with "cargo space / volume" and that's it.

Considering AI:

I really don't see any big problems here.
I am sure, we could create a good feature.

However, the team still needs to accept this idea.

 

[KJ Jansson]

So if they were to combine loads in one slot it would probably still be better to carry the max combined value, rather than max combined weight. But again these wagons would benefit from being able to carry multiple loads at once - again good for human.

Sorry, arago, but probably there is a small misunderstanding.

I really proposed in the first post to use "weight" parameter, but Robert told that in "Dawn of New Era" already realized much more effective technique.

They transport UNITS (quantities) of goods, as we have now in vanilla game, not weights. But you can load in each SLOT as many different types of goods as you need.

This is a significant step forward compairing to current variant, when you can load in each slot only ONE type of goods. Please, see the screens from this mod in this theme.

 

[raystuttgart]

@Team:

These are the questions I would like to clarify:

1. Do you want to have limits for city storage calculated by the sum of all goods (except food) ?
(Currently it is calculated separately for every good.)

2. Do you want the possibility to load several goods into a cargo slot until cargo space volume of that slot is reached ?
(Currently every cargo slot can have only one good.)

3. Would you like to get these features for Release 1, if we get the sources from DoaNE ?
(Otherwise we should really do this later. Probably in Release 2.)

Spoiler :

I would personally answer all 3 questions with "Yes".