Request for Valen: grooming foreign cities

[Whelkman]

To maximize benefit from Caravan bonuses, one must trade with an opponent's city under the following conditions

1. Player city has many trade arrows (~100)
2. Opponent city has many trade arrows (??)
3. Opponent has switched to Democracy or Republic
4. Opponent has not acquired Railroad (or Flight)
5. Opponent max trade city lies many squares and another continent away from player's max trade city

I got bullet one covered and can influence #2 by terraforming opponent land (after somehow influencing him into a high trade scenario). I don't know how to tackle #3 at all. Do I randomize attributes until I land on one conducive to government change and, perhaps, technology theft? Is there any way to prevent #4? What's the value of #5? At the moment, I don't remember how the "international date line" affects bonus levels.

 

[Valen]

1) I like to build on the tip of a peninsula with access to fish. Gems, gold would be a bonus.

2) You can preview the world to pick your trade partner. Look for the one that best fits the above criteria and is likely to switch to Republic. When you first terraform the opponent city, mow down the forests and put down roads. They shouldn't have access to any squares that don't produce trade.

3) Last time I did this, when I discovered railroad, I came back to finish the terraforming job. Apparently, Frederick was a little irate about me walking around on his improved land. (A caravan can "escort" a settler onto occupied and improved squares.) When I got next to Berlin, he threatened to "crush" me if I didn't give him the secret of The Republic. Didn't have to think long about that one. Several other non-militaristic leaders have similarly demanded republic in exchange for peace.

4) They may have a lot of trade, but they are still just one city. Science comes slow. Also, when they make a discovery, you can influence it just like you can influence huts and battles. Oh yeah, for this, you need an embassy there so you see what they discover. You can slow them down by denying them writing, university, trade and of course railroad. Push early construction. You need them to build an aqueduct to keep growing.

5) Once you have scouted the world, you can go back to 3980 and build the trade city with your first settler. Get it as close to 40 columns away from the opponent city as you can. Date line has no effect. Also try to maximize the vertical separation if you can. But don't get too hung up on distance. Trade arrows are obviously more important than 2 or 3 squares of distance.

One more thing. Put the colossus in the trade city. Once in a democracy, you can sell the palace to help finance it.

 

[Valen]

I totally forgot to mention this.
Opponents grow faster at emperor level.

 

[Whelkman]

I like to build on the tip of a peninsula with access to fish. Gems, gold would be a bonus.

Likewise. The eastern tip of South America is ideal, especially with fish, though that means I'd need an adversary on another continent. It seems forcing the opponent onto a trade-rich island would be ideal for both trade and efficient development. I can easily accomplish this by delaying a conquer until I've consumed the rest of available land mass, though this takes time. It seems grooming an early civilization would be realistically preferable.

You can preview the world to pick your trade partner. Look for the one that best fits the above criteria and is likely to switch to Republic.

Got this one. I have pre-scouting (and map generation) down to an art form. But, uh, it's been so long since I've not mowed down the opposition that I've totally forgotten what they do when left to their own devices. I know some tribes build lots of Chariots and try to bum rush while others stockpile science. Obviously I want the latter but don't remember the optimal attributes. Friendly + Perfectionist + Civilized?

A caravan can "escort" a settler onto occupied and improved squares....Several other non-militaristic leaders have similarly demanded republic in exchange for peace.

I forgot about that Caravan trick; thanks for the reminder. I also need to remember to intentionally negotiate with my opposition. I have this long habit of "just say no".

4) They may have a lot of trade, but they are still just one city. Science comes slow. Also, when they make a discovery, you can influence it just like you can influence huts and battles...You need them to build an aqueduct to keep growing.

Science comes especially slow in Chieftain! I'll have to experiment with manipulating the foe's discoveries. I don't know how to take care of the Aqueduct at this point.

 

[Whelkman]

Opponents grow faster at emperor level.

I thought of this. This setup might be easier to accomplish in Emperor because of accelerated growth and more aggressive decision making.

 

[Valen]

It seems forcing the opponent onto a trade-rich island would be ideal for both trade and efficient development.

I've had no luck trying to manipulate this. In one instance, I figured out where the Aztecs were landing and put a cavalry right next to the spot. On the replay, when my settlers rolled into Thebes, I was immediately contacted by Monty showing up next to the cavalry. Wait til you've settled the world? Rapid settlement and buildup is what you need the caravan cash for.

But I did get one lucky placement of the Babylonians - just not on an island. The game doesn't seem to like putting replacements there. But they did have a lot of ocean reach and GOLD.

Obviously I want the latter but don't remember the optimal attributes. Friendly + Perfectionist + Civilized?

I'm not quite sure. Civilized seems to be the best, but neutral (not militaristic) may be good enough. I don't know that the other 2 attributes matter that much.

I don't know how to take care of the Aqueduct at this point

Through manipulation, you can force them to discover construction, but watching an opponent build the aqueduct is frustrating at best.

 

[Gowron]

Likewise. The eastern tip of South America is ideal, especially with fish, though that means I'd need an adversary on another continent. It seems forcing the opponent onto a trade-rich island would be ideal for both trade and efficient development.

If you're playing on Earth, then you could choose a suitable AI empire and set its starting position to wherever you expect them to become a good trade partner

Is there any way to prevent #4?

It's a bit radical, but you could edit the tech tree and make those two techs harder (or impossible) to reach.

But you'll probably want to be able to get RailRoad yourself soon ^^

 

[Blinking Joy]

I did a curious thing on Earth. I started as the Egyptians (well, actually, I randomized it and got the Egyptians, who I renamed the "Indonesians"). I moved a few squares east and built a city on the Red Sea (on the Arabian side). I had started with Mapmaking -- everything was perfect.

I built a settlers and a trireme, and sent them off to Borneo (the biggest of the four islands between Asia and Australia on the civdos Earth map), where I built what would be my future capital. Then I built another settlers in the Arabian city, kept it size one and disbanded it (getting a free "None" settlers, which I brought to Indonesia).

Philippines (the island north of Borneo) had an advanced tribe in precisely the right spot. I built two other cities -- one on Sumatra (west of Borneo) and New Guinea (east of it). So I had four cities by 2900BC, one on each island. Then I got to work.

In no time flat the four islands were nicely irrigated and filled with roads. There were a few horsies, so production wasn't horrid (except on New Guinea, but I made do). If you like Trade Routes on the Earth Map, making an Indonesian civilization is the way to go -- four crisp cities with lots of water, but each with enough land to get to a nice size -- between 21 and 24 when fully railed. Having fishies is a must.

Ah, what a nice game that was -- the Americans survived, and the French were reborn in South America, so those two civs flourished (and were friends with each other). Then there were the Greeks all over Eurasia and the Zulus all over Africa -- neither of those made for great trade routes, though. The French had the best cities, especially the juicy ones along the isthmus (there were three: in Mexico, in Honduras, and in Panama, approximately, all awesome trade route destinations).