Rushing the Great Library

[Chum]

It's pretty easy to get. As you say, there are HOF games, and Prince games in the Game of the Month training series and, frankly, any game by a Prince player who wants to see how well they can play before (or without) moving up in levels.

If someone is happy on Prince, and just wants to improve their Prince skills, they are perfectly entitled to to do, and to come to these forums seeking advice. Not every player needs to push the level at which they play, either for their own sake or to satisfy the expectations of strangers who cannot fathom why someone would be content to keep playing on Prince.

And let's tone down the arrogance a bit -- Prince is not "the least competitive setting". Last I checked there were three levels below Prince.

There's nothing wrong with that, but I do think a disclaimer needs to be made with certain pieces of advice. The fastest wins on high difficulty do not come from delaying settlers and building the GL. Fastest wins on low difficulty when you can't get science from trade routes and can't steal tech from the AI? Well then sure, obviously the fastest wins are going to come from getting free techs because that's the only place you can get them from.

But there's absolutely nothing wrong with questioning things that simply fly in the face of standard logic of high difficulties.

 

[fyar]

But there's absolutely nothing wrong with questioning things that simply fly in the face of standard logic of high difficulties.

The OP said from the outset that he's playing Prince. Not everybody wants to play high difficulties. I do play Deity, but I also have more fun playing Immortal because it allows for more non-standard play. As I said, I even won a game on Immortal by building the Great Library! And it was an effective strategy! (Archipelago map as Indonesia, I shared an island with I think Denmark, who had already claimed all the land to himself, and I popped Writing from a hut. Why not build the GL? I'm not going to expand until Optics anyway, right? I won a domination victory.)

Lastly and most importantly, given that the OP is asking about Prince, why do you insist on answering a question about Deity?

 

[fyar]

No absolutely not, there is no reason to delay founding more cities, building a bunch of workers and an army, and having more fun with the game just to build a Big Dumb Library.

Well that alone was all you had to say. Docbud's comment was a direct response to what you just said. "There is no reason..."? What if the reason is because someone thinks it's fun to build a Big Dumb Library on Prince? Oh, it doesn't count because it's not the same as what you call "having more fun".

I suggest you chill out. If someone thinks it's fun to build a Big Dumb Library on Prince, there's no need for an epic rant. I think it's clear by now to the OP that it usually won't work on higher difficulties.

 

[Aea]

Lastly and most importantly, given that the OP is asking about Prince, why do you insist on answering a question about Deity?

That question was answered in the first couple of posts and then the conversation segued into the utility of the Great Library in general.

 

[fyar]

That question was answered in the first couple of posts and then the conversation segued into the utility of the Great Library in general.

I don't think it segued... the debate is still about the original question. Some people called it a n00b trap from the very start. Others (including myself) qualified that by saying it's a viable strategy on Prince, but not the best way to improve your game to become a Deity player. A few countered that it's not even a viable strategy on Prince, because it's not the "best" way to play the game. Which is to say, their "best" way is what they consider to be the "only" way on Deity.

 

[Chum]

The OP said from the outset that he's playing Prince. Not everybody wants to play high difficulties. I do play Deity, but I also have more fun playing Immortal because it allows for more non-standard play. As I said, I even won a game on Immortal by building the Great Library! And it was an effective strategy! (Archipelago map as Indonesia, I shared an island with I think Denmark, who had already claimed all the land to himself, and I popped Writing from a hut. Why not build the GL? I'm not going to expand until Optics anyway, right? I won a domination victory.)

Lastly and most importantly, given that the OP is asking about Prince, why do you insist on answering a question about Deity?

Well, first of all, I never replied to the OP. My first post in this thread is in reply to Ackoman's question, in which he wondered why the GL was a bad wonder. So, I guess my reply to you is that I'll answer what I want, how I want, and discuss things with whomever I want, as long as it's staying on the general flow of the thread. The thread did in fact segue to the wonder's merit with that question, despite your objections.

I used to do the exact same thing - Pottery, Writing, chop out the GL while I research calendar, and then bam, philosophy. Next stop, national college! Huge right? Yeah, I thought so too. And then I saw a discussion much like this one, where someone posited that your empire would be much better off if you spent all those turns building the GL and the NC building settlers instead - and you know what?

They were right. I had better land, I had better cities, I had more population, more luxes, more money and more science. I was reaching key techs faster, and I was finishing games sooner. I'm happy that someone said something several years ago that was along the lines of "Don't build the GL, it's not a good wonder" because if they hadn't, I might have never improved my play past the King level I was playing on. I'm grateful for discussions like these, because not only does your question get answered, but other questions you never considered get answered as well. If you want a specific early era wonder - steal workers, chop forests. Done, done. If you want a good empire DESPITE not having that wonder, then that discussion comes afterwards.

Both have merit, and trying to shut down that discussion every time it happens is a disservice to the community who is just reading and NOT posting.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Plus, why would you not want to finish the game as quick as possible?

Right on!

I am sure we all agree that we want to spend as little time as possible playing.

 

[phillipwyllie]

...But yeah, it will definitely get you to that point faster.

No it won't.
All the GL gives you in reality is 175 for Philosophy. On games that aren't Deity Education @ t100 is the benchmark and dividing 175 by 100 gives an extra 1.75 per turn.
Planting 4 cities and achieving a t80 NC will get you to Education by t100

 

[Ribannah]

Am I correct to understand that there is interest in playing the least competitive settings (e.g., Prince) the most competitive way possible?

Outside of HOF, can you explain why? I don’t get it.

The Game of the Month, for instance. And the Great Library is usually easy enough to get on King, often on Emperor, and occasionally on Immortal.

 

[Ribannah]

No it won't.
All the GL gives you in reality is 175 for Philosophy. On games that aren't Deity Education @ t100 is the benchmark and dividing 175 by 100 gives an extra 1.75 per turn.

That's not true, as already mentioned earlier. The Great Library gives you:

[1] A free technology (I've taken Currency for Petra on occasion).
[2] A free Library
[3] 3 Science per turn
[4] 1 Great Scientist point per turn
[5] 1 Culture per turn
[6] 2 Great Works of Writing slots

 

[beetle]

Both have merit, and trying to shut down that discussion every time it happens is a disservice to the community who is just reading and NOT posting.

I think this is more than a fair point. People are coming fresh to the game and this board all the time, and don't know what they don't know.

I would also point out that the difference between levels in V is a lot more granular that what we had with III and IV. In those iterations (but not in II, ironically enough) it was a pretty common experience to find one level too easy but that the next level up was much, much too hard.

I don't recall the CFC forums having much emphasis about encouraging people to play III/IV at higher difficulty levels. With IV, the GotM tacitly acknowledged the futility of that, and games are typically posted in three versions.

So I feel like it is a feature of this board that so many people promote strategies that work at any difficulty level.

The Game of the Month, for instance.

Fair point, and I have since noted your tagline “GOTM Queen of Speed”. Clearly, the people there enjoy playing that way. I was late to V because the IV GotM was enough for me for so long. I was disappointed with the V GotM when I finally got to it because the pattern seemed to be always for playing a range of difficulties with the emphasis always on fast game play, rather than mentoring newer participates to improve their skills.

 

[Wild_Woojsha]

Right on!

I am sure we all agree that we want to spend as little time as possible playing.

Well not exactly, I was thinking more along the lines of being able to play two different games in the same time it takes to play 1. If we all wanted to spend as little time as possible playing, why are we even bothering? We might as well play something else. Chess is an olympic sport http://www.olympic.org/chess, Go is one of the 4 essential arts of the ancient chinese scholarhttp://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_arts, and Starcraft has million dollar potshttp://http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/articles/2016-starcraft-ii-world-championship-series. All three would net us more glory if we mastered them, but we are playing CIV instead because its fun. I just don't have a lot of time to commit to this game, so I fall in the camp of people who try to finish their game as quickly as possible. But if I did, maybe I'd try to go for high score instead and take my time.

 

[Athenaeum]

It's funny playing MP with noobs...half of them will try and rush the Great Library, one of them will get it on a ridiculously late turn (like turn 28) and then the others will quit.

Rushing the GL is not worth the early hammers but if you're going to try it you can at least be smart about it.

Look at the literacy demographic to see if you are the only one that has writing. If so you might be in the clear.

Also look at your manufactured goods. If you spawned in jungle and have the lowest hammers you probably shouldn't be trying to compete for early-game wonders - at least until you get that problem fixed.

 

[Wild_Woojsha]

Well that alone was all you had to say. Docbud's comment was a direct response to what you just said. "There is no reason..."? What if the reason is because someone thinks it's fun to build a Big Dumb Library on Prince? Oh, it doesn't count because it's not the same as what you call "having more fun".

I suggest you chill out. If someone thinks it's fun to build a Big Dumb Library on Prince, there's no need for an epic rant. I think it's clear by now to the OP that it usually won't work on higher difficulties.

I did chill out, but I wasn't about to delete that nice long rant. I was explaining why its not a good idea to rush it before having your foundation built, not to just ignore it. Maybe having more fun wasn't the best way to describe not getting slaughtered by the AI when they have finished building up their medieval invasion force, but I personally don't find it fun to see that happen to me. Luckily people on this forum showed me how to not let that happen.

If you build the foundation correctly, regardless of settings or opponents or difficulty level, you have the option to rush the great library and finish it in a quarter of the time you would spend if you just started on it as soon as you possibly could. After using workers to build mines, and getting enough population so that you have enough citizens to work those mines, and using the workers to cut down forests to build the library faster, it will be done in the same amount of time as a normal library in another city if not sooner. The only reason people don't do this on Emperor and above is because the risk of not getting it increases exponentially, so there is no point.

Also, I absolutely think the Great Library becomes the Big Dumb Library when you sacrifice your empire for its timely completion. It's not truly Great if the cost is too high.

 

[fyar]

Well, first of all, I never replied to the OP. My first post in this thread is in reply to Ackoman's question, in which he wondered why the GL was a bad wonder. So, I guess my reply to you is that I'll answer what I want, how I want, and discuss things with whomever I want, as long as it's staying on the general flow of the thread. The thread did in fact segue to the wonder's merit with that question, despite your objections.

Ackoman's question, "Why is it a terrible wonder?" was in reference to the posts immediately following the OP. Since the OP was asking in the context of Prince, you were the one that changed the subject (to "Why is it a terrible wonder for Deity?"), not Ackoman.

But if you want to change the subject, that's fine. I don't dispute anything you say for Deity strategy. But I am answering the OP when I say that the Great Library is a viable strategy on Prince. It is NOT a terrible wonder at that level. In fact I argue that it could be a good wonder up to Immortal (not usually though). And I also said all along that if you're training to be a Deity player, it won't help you in that goal. I do agree that it's important to mention that caveat, and I did, but you don't have to belittle people who play a "non-Deity" play-style along the way.

 

[Ninakoru]

On prince/king is quite easy to get GL up and running, there's a strategy that will give you a ridiculous science output by turn.. 50-60? But ONLY ONE CITY.

- Policies: Tradition -> Wonder bonus 15%
- Monument <-> Scout - Worker - Granary.
- Get to bronze working, focus on improving farms + mines (forget luxuries (except salt), they only give gold).
- Now Get to Writing, build GL, don't focus too much in production if you can grow fast.
- Get the tech prereqs for Philosophy, chop forests to speed it up if possible.
- On GL ready: Get philosophy for free and immediately Start national collegue.
- When you're finished, you will lead science with a huge advantage, but now is time to focus on get your 3-4 cities ASAP, it will be a bit too late.

 

[docbud]

It's funny playing MP with noobs...half of them will try and rush the Great Library, one of them will get it on a ridiculously late turn (like turn 28) and then the others will quit.

I've never played MP, so I'm curious why turn 28 is considered such a ridiculously late turn. Are the games on standard speed or quick? What difficulty?

I play SP on King (usually) and GL usually goes around turn 35-50 or so. Though, I started an immortal game last night and it was gone by turn 26.

 

[docbud]

I did chill out, but I wasn't about to delete that nice long rant. I was explaining why its not a good idea to rush it before having your foundation built, not to just ignore it. Maybe having more fun wasn't the best way to describe not getting slaughtered by the AI when they have finished building up their medieval invasion force, but I personally don't find it fun to see that happen to me. Luckily people on this forum showed me how to not let that happen.

If you build the foundation correctly, regardless of settings or opponents or difficulty level, you have the option to rush the great library and finish it in a quarter of the time you would spend if you just started on it as soon as you possibly could. After using workers to build mines, and getting enough population so that you have enough citizens to work those mines, and using the workers to cut down forests to build the library faster, it will be done in the same amount of time as a normal library in another city if not sooner. The only reason people don't do this on Emperor and above is because the risk of not getting it increases exponentially, so there is no point.

Also, I absolutely think the Great Library becomes the Big Dumb Library when you sacrifice your empire for its timely completion. It's not truly Great if the cost is too high.

I'm trying to understand how someone is supposed to get four cities out, get workers doing chopping, increase population, AND build the Great Library by turn 40.

As a note--I've built the GL plenty of times and I have never been "slaughtered" by the AI's medeival military. If anything, after building the GL I tech fast enough to have a superior military and I can build or buy enough units to defend myself with.

But you may be right if it's going for the traditional four-city. I usually don't. I usually only have two large cities and I go to war and puppet what I want.

In my current game as Babylon, I am sticking with one city. I was originally going to go for more, but while I was still building my first settler, Egypt forward settled three cities on me. So I cancelled the settler and built the GL.

On prince/king is quite easy to get GL up and running, there's a strategy that will give you a ridiculous science output by turn.. 50-60? But ONLY ONE CITY.

- Policies: Tradition -> Wonder bonus 15%
- Monument <-> Scout - Worker - Granary.
- Get to bronze working, focus on improving farms + mines (forget luxuries (except salt), they only give gold).
- Now Get to Writing, build GL, don't focus too much in production if you can grow fast.
- Get the tech prereqs for Philosophy, chop forests to speed it up if possible.
- On GL ready: Get philosophy for free and immediately Start national collegue.
- When you're finished, you will lead science with a huge advantage, but now is time to focus on get your 3-4 cities ASAP, it will be a bit too late.

That's about right--but I've seen GL build by turn 40.

 

[Wild_Woojsha]

I'm trying to understand how someone is supposed to get four cities out, get workers doing chopping, increase population, AND build the Great Library by turn 40.

As a note--I've built the GL plenty of times and I have never been "slaughtered" by the AI's medeival military. If anything, after building the GL I tech fast enough to have a superior military and I can build or buy enough units to defend myself with.

But you may be right if it's going for the traditional four-city. I usually don't. I usually only have two large cities and I go to war and puppet what I want.

In my current game as Babylon, I am sticking with one city. I was originally going to go for more, but while I was still building my first settler, Egypt forward settled three cities on me. So I cancelled the settler and built the GL.

That's about right--but I've seen GL build by turn 40.

No one can do all of that by turn 40 on standard speed and standard settings. I'm saying you shouldn't try to start it until around turn 40. Don't make it the first priority, make it the last. Build settler 2 quickly, get workers and a warrior/archer team, and then get cracking on the library. That gives you 30 turns extra for your second city to grow, 30 turns extra for your military to kill barbarians for city states and annoy your enemies, and 30 turns extra to enjoy the benefits of improved land. The OP didn't do that, you sound like you do but I have no idea. Every map is different, but priorities are the same. Scout, grow, work, settle, militarize, then build wonders.

On quick speed, building great library by turn 28 is pretty late I guess, I'm not sure how low it scales down but it seems everything is far faster. I don't play many games on quick because I don't have time for Multi-player.

 

[elniallo]

That's not true, as already mentioned earlier. The Great Library gives you:

[1] A free technology (I've taken Currency for Petra on occasion).
[2] A free Library
[3] 3 Science per turn
[4] 1 Great Scientist point per turn
[5] 1 Culture per turn
[6] 2 Great Works of Writing slots

When you do the math on that,
1 (approx 175 beakers) maybe
2 ~ 1gpt
3 ~ 3bpt
4 ~ 1GSpt
5 ~ 1Cpt
6 ~ 4Cpt, 4 Tourism.

So at base level, without any other bonuses, a full great library gives you
3 bpt, 1gpt, 5 cpt, 4 tourism, 1 GS. Not bad at all.
But I agree on higher levels it's not worth trying to build it, but sometimes I will attempt a wonder that I know I'm not going to get, and then use the gold bonus from lost production to buy something else. Not optimal play, but I only play for fun anyway, couldn't give a toss what turn I finish by.