Russia and the West
- Thread starter amadeus
- Start date
Russian alliance with Nazis? Riiiiight.
Verbose
Deity
Yeah...
German-Soviet Pact
The German-Soviet Pact paved the way for the joint invasion and occupation of Poland by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in September 1939.
And this, children, is why we take a dim view of the idea of "spheres of influence".
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
LOL
German–Soviet Axis talks occurred in October and November 1940 concerning the Soviet Union's potential entry as a fourth Axis Power during World War II.
amadeus
burning out his fuse out here alone
Playing a little fast and loose with the history. I wouldn't call the Hitler-Stalin pact an alliance, but that's still different from Poland signing a non-aggression treaty with Germany four years before making the demands on Czechoslovakia, not as a secret protocol in tandem with the Munich conference. Poland had also signed a non-aggression pact with the USSR that was upheld about as well as the one they had signed with Germany.
If that was the root of the issue, there were many more who allied with the nazis
Some still have national heroes from those old alliances.
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
Its funny because the West considered allying with Nazis against Soviet, as Hitler played the communist threat up and boosted that the Nazis would defend Europe against you,
And Stalin was negosiating to enter into the Axis is just hilarious
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Verbose
Deity
Close enough 1939-41.
During the Finnish Winter war 1939-40 the Finns gave the Nazi German war correspondents a hard time, since they regarded them directly as Soviet allies.
It's a bit like the pious fiction that 1941-45 the Finns might have been a Nazi German "co-belligerents" in a somehow unrelated war with the USSR.
But that came about only after in 1940 the USSR refused to allow Finland to enter a defensive alliance with Sweden, to uphold strict neutrality. Which the Finns interpreted as a signal that the USSR was intent on returning later and finishing the job of liquidating Finland. Meaning it's best chance of long-term survival was understood to be the end of the USSR itself.
There is a lot on the USSR's plate prior to the German attack in 1941. A lot of it is of a kind that it makes sense Soviet/Russian history has tended to gloss over what actually happened prior to 1941, and tend to just have the war start then and there, as somehow something with no real prequel.
Major problem for present day Russia is to gain an actually representative idea of its own history. Has not been done, remains to be done in a big way, and the Putin government is doing precisely what you mentioned – creating a total alt-history of it. Its views on Ukraine so far is the most egregious example of the sheer nuttiness of it all.
Verbose
Deity
As Churchill put in in discussion with Swedish diplomats in 1940: "The last thing we want is another casualty."
What do you actually know about WWII except snark?
I do know that if you are a nazi ally country, you can't argue the issue with someone else was that they were nazi ally countries
=>that specific argument against Russia holds no water.
It might be interesting for me as a Russian to participate in discussion about Russia's contribution to art and culture, as well as science and technology.
But as you can see this thread already turned into the usual "Russia Nazi LOL" bashing fest. Something I warned about.
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Neo-byzantine architecture is interesting too ^^
saamohod
Deity
What could have been the cause?
Something seems to have happened a year ago. Something outrageous and nasty that made discussions about Tolstoyevsky and matryoshkas largely out of place.
Nope, nothing changed much in that regard.
A bit more culture mocking idiots appeared though.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
You mean the liberation of Ukrainian people from the NATO nazis? The operation which now heavily leans on a neo nazi group for some success?
A year ago culture destroying criminals appeared in Ukraine.
amadeus
burning out his fuse out here alone
I didn’t write those posts.
Regardless, I remain unconvinced there is some kind of metaphysical force that compels the West to have hostile relations with Russia.
I think going over the last twenty years, all of which when Putin was in government, it has been a push from Moscow to move further away from the friendlier period of relations of the late Gorbachev-Yeltsin era.
Russia (under Putin) wanted to join nato and/or Eu. They weren't allowed to. So it's not as if their plan was to create a chasm; the chasm already was there (for various reasons).
The above doesn't mean their invasion could have not led to a far more massive chasm - as it did.
Culturally, scientifically, historically, Russia is obviously part of Europe and there is no debate on that.
