[RD] Russia invades Ukraine V: The Turning Tide

[Farm Boy]

When there is a slightest shadow of doubt, it will be interpreted in Ukrainian favor here.
The only exception is blatantly evident cases, when Ukraine lies them in the face. Like with Polish tractor.

Yes, it will. Comes from believing people who lived under Russian colonization growing up. Comes from decades of my friends and extended family being killed and wounded by Russian built arms in Russian supported naked wars of conquest. Leaves a lingering impression, whether we want it to or not.

For the record, it's a war. I believe atrocity is the tool of all sides, or it wouldn't be a war.

 

[red_elk]

Blatantly evident? This is actually perfect material for claims of western cover up. I dont think that most people are rocket experts.

Blatantly evident for Polish investigators, of course. Since their people were killed, covering up cynical lie about "Russian missile" was too much even for them.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes. Russia tried to emulate the United States and its military doctrins by conducting a Russian version of a combined arms assault in February/March last year. Didn't work out; they found out the hard way that modern combined arms warfare actually requires heavy logistics, good intelligence, vehicles that are actually maintained and a well trained and resourceful officer corps which Russia has never cultivated, because independent thinking among citizens and officers alike, is considered a threat to the regime. China is exactly the same in that regard.

Hence Russia fights the only way it knows to fight; throw bodies at the problem and shower it with artillery shells. When those bodies are dead, just throw more bodies. And then even more. Just like a re-enactment of WW1 and WW2 battlegrounds. Russian lives have no value other than as the fuel that powers Putin's megalomania and paranoia.

Well it's authoritarian regimes in general with Nazi Germany being an exception. They didn't rule ling enough to redo the army.

 

[REDY]

Blatantly evident for Polish investigators, of course. Since their people were killed, covering up cynical lie about "Russian missile" was too much even for them.

So investigations are not about finding out whats happened but its more about patriotism/loyalty and cynism? How you came there are not cynical and unloyal Polish investigators? By result?
You claim big words like blatant evident or cynical lie but I do not see why.

 

[Akka]

When there is a slightest shadow of doubt, it will be interpreted in Ukrainian favor here.
The only exception is blatantly evident cases, when Ukraine lies them in the face. Like with Polish tractor.

Well, that's still better than you, who still denies everything that is bad even when it's blatantly evident, and justifies anything that is beyond heinous.
Stones, glass house, etc.

Needs a separate answer because it's pre war, and not the issue here. I don't know if the CIA was directly or indirectly involved. However, we know that both John McMain and Victoria Nuland have held speeches on the Maidan in favour of the protesters (sic!).

Err... so ? People made speech about how they support protesters ? That's supposed to be a plot or something ?

John McCain back opposition leaders and attends anti-government rally

U.S. Sen. John McCain took in the anti-government protest scene in Kiev's Maidan square, snapping pictures with his cell phone as he met with opposition leaders.

www.dailymail.co.uk

So we have at least some high ranking US politicians actively interfering in a country's inner political debate, giving speeches against the current government. Imagin this would happen in the US or any other European country.

No need to imagine, people routinely express their support about such or such candidate, and Russia openly and covertly funded far-right candidates all over Europe. I mean, Russian ACTUAL interference (not just making speech about supporting such or such) have been pretty comprehensive and systematic for years now. Including in the USA, up to the presidential election.

My focus in the article was on the current developments, and the strategic outlook for both sides. They also note that Russia could lose this war based on the current situation, which does not necessarily imply the use of nuclear weapons (which is reassuring, at least a bit).

Yes, the part about the actual operations on the ground was more neutral, but it's pretty hard to take at face value an analysis when you know the people behind it are not just partial (this is par of the course from nearly all sources), but actively trying to lie and misrepresent.

 

[MrRadar]

Do you think Russia will be more likely to back down or more inclined to peace talks after Moscow historical center is attacked?

What about multiple Russian missiles that have hit Kyiv? And numerous other cities. Civilian targets, on top of that, with civilian casualties?

Depending on the damage, I'd be ok with responding by using small yield tactical nuke against Ukrainian military target. As a member of "Russian people" who received your message.

But the "people of Donbass"! What will become of them??? All this fallout and such. Who knows where the wind will blow?
Also, after this, how do you think, ROTW would react to Russia? Will they receive your message? What would be their response? Oh, the possibilities...

Ok, my responce about nukes was overreaction, I'd like to take it back.
But if you really want to send message to Russia, consider other ways to deliver it, than missile to Red Square.

Yes, I have seen your later post with a wish to retract your response due to overreaction. But... does it matter? Let's imagine you overracted as a leader... Russian tactical nuke has been launched first and there is no way back to recall it. You did it. How do you feel? After all, you posted it. And you've been quoted, as you wished.

If you really want to send a message to the West... maybe consider other ways than threatening with nuclear annihilation every other day. Or invading some neighbouring country every other minute. Russia and Russians are not that extraordinary or exclusive or very special, you know. Just like every other country or nation.

 

[red_elk]

So investigations are not about finding out whats happened but more about patriotism/loyalty and cynism? How you came there are not cynical and unloyal Polish investigators? By result?
You claim big words like blatant evident or cynical lie but I do not see why except you would somewhat miracilously became big fan of some Polish investigator?

Investigations are about finding out what's happened.
Public announcements about investigation results are about politics, loyalty and shaping public opinion. See Colin Powell's beaker story for example.
I already explained Polish reasoning to say the truth in this particular case - because Polish people were killed and no matter how much they are "loyal" to Ukraine, they are more loyal to their own people.
Not so sure about Swedish investigation of pipeline sabotage, whether they haven't found much evidences so far, or witholding information for political reasons.

 

[red_elk]

If you really want to send a message to the West...

I don't.

 

[Gedemon]

Western mainstream media: "Move along, nothing to see here".

Wrong.

Both Russia and Ukraine tortured prisoners of war, UN says

The U.N. human rights office (OHCHR) said on Tuesday that both Russia and Ukraine have tortured prisoners of war during the nearly nine-month conflict, citing examples including the use of electric shocks and forced nudity.

www.reuters.com

On the Ukrainian side, Bogner reported "credible allegations" of summary executions of Russian prisoners, noting that no progress has yet been seen in Ukrainian authorities' investigations into these cases.

 

[red_elk]

Wrong.

Both Russia and Ukraine tortured prisoners of war, UN says

The U.N. human rights office (OHCHR) said on Tuesday that both Russia and Ukraine have tortured prisoners of war during the nearly nine-month conflict, citing examples including the use of electric shocks and forced nudity.

www.reuters.com

November 15?

 

[Gedemon]

November 15?

yes, when there is something to see, it's not treated as "move along, nothing to see here"

 

[red_elk]

yes, when there is something to see, it's not treated as "move along, nothing to see here"

You sure there's nothing to see in OHCHR statement this time? Or may be something made it invisible for Western mainstream media?
Perhaps because the spokeswoman made comment about Ukrainian crimes only and it's hard to write "balanced" headline this time?

 

[amadeus]

So far the only news sources I’ve seen that have picked this up are posted here, linked to the article posted here, or TASS or linked to the TASS article.

I would expect the OHCHR office to publish its comments on its website, but haven’t seen anything yet.

 

[Gorbles]

You sure there's nothing to see in OHCHR statement this time?

Nobody is claiming there is nothing to see. You're the one who rushed in with something hot off the presses to claim the thing that'd just been reported on from the primary source was being ignored.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

@red_elk matiupol theater, bucha executions.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: Thread closed; new thread started.