Scouts

[rodrigoq]

Oh yeah... scouts can take cities too, especially if you don't have a melee unit that can skip over a hill or swamp to capture a city. Even better if the city is on the other side of the map, and a civ is beating a city with archers, but has no melee units left to take the city. Just DoW, then take the city. Free, and by a useless scout. Then sell it, or, if you can, try defending it, you'll make lots of friends scout tapping a city for no good reason.

 

[Alzadar]

Ok someone explain to me how you jokers are getting that GL on Deity.

Just tried it twice just to see. Egypt, settle on a hill with nearby hills and forest. Marble both times (do they have a luxury bias?), but of course no time to improve it. First game I found a Mining ruin which helped a lot, second game I got culture and +citizen which is immensely strong/lucky.

Monument -> Worker (CS don't spawn workers until like turn 25, and with no scout it is just dumb luck if you find another civ, how else but to hard build?) -> Great Library (worker usually pops at the same time as Writing)
Pottery -> Writing -> Mining (if not from hut)
Tradition -> Aristocracy

Have worker chop 2 nearby forests, switch all citizens to production (game 2 I was starving my city, had to switch one off hills at the end or I would have lost a citizen). Still missed the GL by 5 turns on game 1 and 3 turns on game 2.

What kind of magic start are you guys pulling to get that thing even 20% of the time as non-Egypt? The only way I can see this working is if you find Writing in a ruin AND you find a super close civ that you can steal a worker from. Might as well play Spain and reroll until I spawn next to King Solomon's mines...

 

[Xiao Xiong]

Next time skip the monument, that slowed you down. Or build it after the worker, you will have just enough time to get it out before you build the gl. I prefer a shrine, then free monument from tradition, so that I have a shot at a good pantheon. Research pottery then writing immediately, then mining. That way you have farms up when you start gl, ideally on wheat. Usually then get mining while building gl and start chopping. Next you likely need to research calendar if you want to pop philosophy.

What often screws me is barbs pillaging my tiles and forcing my worker to hide. The warrior sometimes can't protect stuff abd you haven't got an archer yet.

 

[CountAccountant]

Ok someone explain to me how you jokers are getting that GL on Deity.

Just tried it twice just to see. Egypt, settle on a hill with nearby hills and forest. Marble both times (do they have a luxury bias?), but of course no time to improve it. First game I found a Mining ruin which helped a lot, second game I got culture and +citizen which is immensely strong/lucky.

Monument -> Worker (CS don't spawn workers until like turn 25, and with no scout it is just dumb luck if you find another civ, how else but to hard build?) -> Great Library (worker usually pops at the same time as Writing)
Pottery -> Writing -> Mining (if not from hut)
Tradition -> Aristocracy

Have worker chop 2 nearby forests, switch all citizens to production (game 2 I was starving my city, had to switch one off hills at the end or I would have lost a citizen). Still missed the GL by 5 turns on game 1 and 3 turns on game 2.

What kind of magic start are you guys pulling to get that thing even 20% of the time as non-Egypt? The only way I can see this working is if you find Writing in a ruin AND you find a super close civ that you can steal a worker from. Might as well play Spain and reroll until I spawn next to King Solomon's mines...

Getting the Great Library on Deity is really easy. In fact, I have gotten it an astounding 100% of my Deity games in which I disable all of the AIs and play hotseat multiplayer with myself.

 

[Alzadar]

Next time skip the monument, that slowed you down. Or build it after the worker, you will have just enough time to get it out before you build the gl. I prefer a shrine, then free monument from tradition, so that I have a shot at a good pantheon. Research pottery then writing immediately, then mining. That way you have farms up when you start gl, ideally on wheat. Usually then get mining while building gl and start chopping. Next you likely need to research calendar if you want to pop philosophy..

How will you hit Aristocracy without the Monument? Open tradition on turn 25 means you won't get your second policy until turn 40. Praying for a Culture ruin without a scout is not a strategy.

@edit: ok no Aristocracy, I kind of agree with that. I don't see how you hope to finish Mining and Calendar before the Great Library pops though.

Besides, how did it slow me down? The worker popped as soon as Writing did (and in game two couldn't do anything until Mining finished anyway), it didn't slow the Great Library from starting.

 

[Xiao Xiong]

How will you hit Aristocracy without the Monument? Open tradition on turn 25 means you won't get your second policy until turn 40. Praying for a Culture ruin without a scout is not a strategy.

Besides, how did it slow me down? The worker popped as soon as Writing did (and in game two couldn't do anything until Mining finished anyway), it didn't slow the Great Library from starting.

It slowed you because you were working unimproved tiles for longer. Your city was smaller and worked fewer hammers. You want farms up before writing!

If you feel you must have the monument then build that after the worker.

 

[rodrigoq]

Ok someone explain to me how you jokers are getting that GL on Deity.

Just tried it twice just to see. Egypt, settle on a hill with nearby hills and forest. Marble both times (do they have a luxury bias?), but of course no time to improve it. First game I found a Mining ruin which helped a lot, second game I got culture and +citizen which is immensely strong/lucky.

Monument -> Worker (CS don't spawn workers until like turn 25, and with no scout it is just dumb luck if you find another civ, how else but to hard build?) -> Great Library (worker usually pops at the same time as Writing)
Pottery -> Writing -> Mining (if not from hut)
Tradition -> Aristocracy

Have worker chop 2 nearby forests, switch all citizens to production (game 2 I was starving my city, had to switch one off hills at the end or I would have lost a citizen). Still missed the GL by 5 turns on game 1 and 3 turns on game 2.

What kind of magic start are you guys pulling to get that thing even 20% of the time as non-Egypt? The only way I can see this working is if you find Writing in a ruin AND you find a super close civ that you can steal a worker from. Might as well play Spain and reroll until I spawn next to King Solomon's mines...

Go steal an AI's workers.. Diety AI's start with 2, and are always left undefended most of the time. You don't need Egypt, just tradition/aristo. First thing you build, is a scout. They steal workers, and hit up ruins, you could get lucky and score mining or writing early. If you goody hut writing, you'll probably get GL. PRAY HARD for +population ruins, they make a huge diff.

Most importantly.. steal workers from AI civs. This is a huge advantage over hard building.

You can also negate the need for mining/masonry if you build your city ON MARBLE. You get the luxury, and the build bonus from turn 0 or 1. I usually don't screw up my cities by starting on marble, but if you want to score GL on diety to say you did it.. build on marble, with egypt and steal workers. But you don't need egypt. And.. set city to production as soon as you start building wonder, till them set to food focus.

 

[Alzadar]

Ok tried again. Worker -> Shrine -> (1 dead turn) -> Great Library

p.s. what is the point of the Shrine, unless you run into a Faith CS or get a ruin you won't get a Pantheon until after turn 30

Built a farm with the worker, worked that until Writing popped. Rome forward settled like 3 hexes away from me so I could steal a second worker, double chop as soon as Mining finished. Worker three hills tiles, again starving my city just to rush the wonder. Still get beat by one turn (ok it was closer this time I guess).

Also it is literally impossible to finish Calendar before GL unless you are Babylon or Maya (10 turns Pottery, 12 turns Writing, 6 turns Mining, 12 turns Calendar, I count 40 turns, 0% chance of GL being unfinished at that time).

I'm convinced you guys must be playing on cooked settings like 1 enemy civ on non-standard speed.

@rodrigoq: the whole point of this thread is skipping Scout so you can get the all-important Great Library

 

[CountAccountant]

Do either of you have a save game where the GL has been built on Deity? It just seems like an easier solution than having poor Alzadar create game after game to try to replicate your results.

 

[Atwork]

Since this game came out, I've wished for a scout/recon line. Their role is unique and, I think, fun. In my early strategy, especially at higher levels when it's hard to get out a large army before being attacked, I find that scouts play a vital role, if only to keep an eye on things in distant corners.

And, I think they play a useful and helpful role in support of advancing armies by watching the flank and scouting ahead in rough terrain. But, by the mid-game, they are too weak to play any sort of meaningful role.

In real life, scouting patrols/recon units are extremely important, even to modern armies, just they have been throughout military history. I wish the scout's importance were recognized and given enough weight to go ahead and continue the line. I'd like to send my Jeep, and later Humvee, units off to scout for my WW2 and modern armies.

 

[Alzadar]

Ok even with Mayans rushing Pottery (build Pyramid) -> Writing -> Mining -> Calendar, I can't finish Calendar until turn 35, whereas in my games GL has been going on turns 32, 33 and 34 every time. This time I re-rolled several maps, had a bunch of starts with no hills and/or no forests to chop.

Not to mention I didn't even have a Pantheon on turn 32 when the GL went.

I call horseradish! I like CountAccountant's idea.

 

[bjelar]

I think we can safely say that unless you are willing to start over again and again, trying to build GL on deity is not something one should do.

Sure it is possible, I've done it plenty of times, but you need to be lucky with the AI. They need to be low wonder pri civs, or suffer wars early on (then they change to units-focus instead of building wonders.)

Obviously the more opponents you have, the less likely you are to get it. Too much of a gamble in any case.

 

[Knut_Are_M]

I would not recomend to get the Great Library in singleplayer on deity.
But if you do want to go for it, play Egypt, reroll untill you get a nice deer/wheat/salt start.
build monument-grainery-Great Library.
And get the free worker from Liberty.

You might want to go collective rule and free iron working instead of national colllege if you do that. the collossus is a very good Wonder.

PS scout first is useful in most online games. Even if ruins are turned off.

Oh and bullying CS for gold will quite often give you the best starts. and that tactic requires that you ignore the early Wonders.

 

[Xiao Xiong]

It is really map dependent, and you won't know if it's worth a try until you research writing. If you don't have at least four or five citizens working good hammer tiles, with a city that is still growing, if you didn't get aristocracy, abort and build a regular library.

You gotta feel that building the library is achievable without wrecking your development.

Best start is one with multiple wheat nearby, buy the tiles if you need to, and improve them. Consider researching AH ahead of mining if you have a mounted UU, high odds you have horses to work and sell.

Yeah you likely need to have got a few nice huts. If you didn't, don't try. If you popped AH and culture or some citizens it helps. I usually only get 3 or maybe 4 ruins at most before I need to recall my warrior to defend the worker.

 

[uncle bulgaria]

*post deleted due to early morning idiocy*

 

[Syailendra]

my gosh alzadar, please don't bite the bait, if you want gl on deity, just try marathon pace!

 

[Felix953]

 

[NyQuil]

Getting the Great Library on Deity is really easy. In fact, I have gotten it an astounding 100% of my Deity games in which I disable all of the AIs and play hotseat multiplayer with myself.

And yet, somehow I failed to do it under those conditions.

 

[steveg700]

I'll take a whack at the GL if I have forests around to chop. Then again, I don't bother with Deity as the impression I get in threads like this is that it's chiefly just a test of one's ability to stick to a cut-and-dried set of optimal choices.

I used to build scouts as a matter of routine, but now it's a matter of whether or not the surrounding terrain is excessively rough.

 

[CountAccountant]

And yet, somehow I failed to do it under those conditions.

Ah, don't feel bad. I mean, it IS Deity after all.