SGOTM 13 - TNT thread

If I had the time, I will play the game to see how early conquest I can pull. I have no time to read the other teams threads and this will be better for keeping it unaffected.

I encourage all the other team members try the map again for themselves and share thoughts.
 
Congratulations guys for the great game. I still haven't caught up reading our own thread, not to mention the other teams' threads to compare. Well done!
 
I tried settling in place with second city on SE GH. I don't think it was as good as our actual effort with the PH start. Other teams did early exploration and found the gold site which became the second city for both PD and OSS. In the PD game, Cathy built SH so they went right after Moscow to get both the GLH and SH, obviously this was a big help.

There's lots of good discussion in the other threads but a lot of reading. If I, or someone else finds good summaries of their strategies and ideas, post the links for all of us.

@2metra - That would be great.... :thumbsup:

Anyone else going to try some different moves? The more I think of it, the more I think that early exploration was something we should have done. By not exploring, we lost the fish/pigs city and missed an early settling of the gold. Settling the marble was a best third choice from what I've read, 4th city copper.

In retrospect, we built a lot of cities earlier than most teams but didn't go to war early enough (copper delayed by city placement didn't help) and not getting the circumnavigation bonus was a setback.

There seems to be a lot of discussion about the flying camera and some players really dislike the concept.

@bjartur - Our team posted about 48 pages and some threads were over a hundred. :eek: It makes catching up a lot of reading....
 
Whats this thing about the flying camera I hear a lot here? Some way to see tiles without actually having units there? Or?
 
^^ We used the flying camera early in the game. Check out our thread beginning with post #237. The Plastic Ducks and a few others used it in their games. There's also the hidden elevation trick which justjohn mentioned later in our thread.

There are strong feelings about whether it should be considered an exploit. Check the One Short Straw thread.

Both PD and OSS have summaries on their first page which makes finding turnsets and important discussions much easier than gleaning through the whole thread.

I believe you have to enable this feature in the .ini file.
 
I read through the PD game. The thing I learned is that they are not actually inhuman :p.

Specifically, we didn't lose huge ground except for the mistakes I was aware of by the end of the game :p.

Our opening is basically as good as theirs, even if somewhat different (we slightly undervalued exploring, but they also made a couple mistakes). Our research path through Oracle is as good as theirs. I should have recognized that grabbing MetalCasting through Oracle loses value since The Colossus is a mistake. We had talked about conquering the GLH first, and just decided against it. We had most of a plan for getting an army to conquer Ragnar about thirty turns quicker and just didn't do it.

I used to think that the biggest difference between someone of my skill level and top players is that they knew magic things I didn't. But now I think that the effort put in is more important. I feel like thanks to putting in a lot of effort in this game, we played at a really impressive level.

One thing I am a little bit worried about is that we will lose some of that intensity for the opening of the next game. We definitely had less input on some very important mid-game decisions (like settling copper, which wonders to build, which infrastructure was actually worthwhile, when to shut off research, etc). If this was to happen in the opening, that would be disastrous. But I think we'll remember that.

Another clear weakness of our team was that we were full of people who are used to playing games into the late ages. The priorities for such a game are very different; in that case things like some wonders and some infrastructure makes a lot more sense. Please don't take the lesson from this game to avoid libraries for your next space race :p.

Anyway, great start and looking forward to August :).
 
we got a nod there from the plastic ducks:

"Have you seen the progress graph of the new team TNT? They seems did pretty well regarding the score and power. I guess they got CS from Oracle. Is it possible on T119 without Math bulb?"
 
Being noticed and mentioned by the Ducks is like being a singer and Madonna wearing a t-shirt with your portrait on it ;)
 
So first of all I would like to congratulate ourselves for this game. We have played at a level none of us could have achieved alone. It was also a lot of fun, even thought I couldn’t participate with as much effort as I wanted to.
Our mistakes have been obviously stated before: now again in order of importance

1. The lack of early scouting and missing circumnavigation cost us most.

A moving unit is a nonexistent unit. On this map circumnavigation practical gives 50% of your troop strength at galleys, and still whooping 25% at galleons. We missed out on gold city, and we attacked Ragnar first.

2. Wrong tech from oracle, and building the Colossus.

It was a hammer-invest that delayed other stuff too much, and didn’t pay off big-time in economy. Simply bulbing currency would have been better. Although I suggest that the optimal play would have been bulbing theocracy maybe for the highly promoted units early on.

3. These two mistakes added up to a delayed attack on the wrong target. We made some micromanagement mistakes from then on.


BUT I have to say this much, all of this mistakes boil down to one simple fact. None of us had the experience with Emperor level archipelago maps, to know that it is pretty much doable with axe + catapult.
If you know this, every other decision is easy. Colossus is then of course a no go, and attacking with only axe also. You have a clear goal of Galleys, Axes and catapults, where u can be100% sure u need circumnavigation, and u don’t need to go to lib race.

All in all, we did a good job. Let’s hope next time we get something we are more familiar with.

On my end I’m hoping for an immortal game with vassal states on, and at least 1-2 land targets. :)
 
Btw, our start was realy realy impressive! if we went for the gold city, i think we could have gotten to 4-5th place.
 
Btw, our start was realy realy impressive! if we went for the gold city, i think we could have gotten to 4-5th place.

Good analysis, fizban! I thought our second city turned out very well despite missing gold but scouting would have revealed the surroundings and we'd have had an even better start.

dima mentioned our enthusiasm to analyze the opening city placement and I thought that was well done but later in the game our interest dwindled. We/I should have insisted building on the copper but without a lot of discussion, we missed that.

I think 2metra's first war set was very exciting even though it required a strategic retreat. We could have had a worse setback. I am not the best warmonger by a long shot but I think once we got the right units and civics, we did well bringing down our neighbours.

Ragnar had built SH but I can't really remember it helping our culture. :crazyeye: Realizing that might have spurned us to get it earlier, too, and try to avoid astronomy. Vikings -> Moscow.
Oops! My mistake it was Willem in Amsterdam and therefore too late for SH. :confused:

One of the mistakes I made was to 3 pop a library in Elba. :rolleyes: There were already a turn or two of hammers towards it and there were 2 unhappy citizens so I gritted my teeth and whipped a dubious build. I must admit, I dislike unhappy citizens and wasted hammers but that was no excuse. :blush:

If we'd have found the GLH, the most desirable wonder for this game, we might have, with a 50% movement advantage, gone after Cathy earlier, which is what the Ducks did to their advantage. We knew she had it but didn't know where she was.

As a Captain, I should be a more knowledgeable player. I'm still learning a lot of things, details that most players know that leave a lot of room for improvement. If I lead by example, my example is to say dumb things that show up my novice ability. :smoke:

I usually don't finish games I start mostly because I don't choose a victory condition early enough and the game languishes into oblivion. However, I usually have a 'winnable position' unless I overlook something.

In a way, for a new team doing a succession game for a first time, and a first time for many years for me, I think asking dumb questions and being prepared to do so is a bonus. You can ask a dumb question or remain dumb but the key thing is participating in the discussion.

When you read other threads, you know the experienced players by how they set about discussing the strategy. The Ducks made extensive workboat exploration plans, right down to where the wb ends up in a position to net the seafood for a new city immediately. Little things like that make for winning play.

I still haven't read every thread but the replay facility is pretty cool to compare team's play. This way you can cherry pick the discussion related to a decision, look it up in their thread and save a lot of time reading. Had we finished earlier, we would have been able to follow along in real time. :cool:

None of us had the experience with Emperor level archipelago maps,

Actually, justjohn was our archipelago expert and offered great advice about how to approach this map. Our war timing was behind schedule as we all agree but jj's advice helped us from floundering too far from the path.

I would think that our start kept our interest high to begin with but once we began losing our edge, the avid discussion faltered. We need to agree to participate in decision making right to the end, put our biases on the line and learn by cooperative success or failure. I know that in my tournament chess playing days, I usually remembered the games I'd lost and rarely the games I'd won unless it was something special. ;)

I hope we hear some more analysis and game replays. I'm going to continue reading threads when I have the time. It seems many of us are looking forward to the next game and that is the best news! :goodjob:
 
By the way, if you are interested in what the other teams did in their threads but don't want to read every post, you can use the 'THREAD TOOLS' at the top right of each page, or download their thread and search for key words in the text file. No pics but once you find the key word you can go back to the thread posts and find what you're looking for. :D
 
None of us had the experience with Emperor level archipelago maps,

Actually, justjohn was our archipelago expert and offered great advice about how to approach this map. Our war timing was behind schedule as we all agree but jj's advice helped us from floundering too far from the path.

yeah, I'm sorry. Thats true. But I still maintain that we didn't "KNOW" we have to win at Galley+axe+catapult. (with later maces)

I mean if u say emperor pangea genghis, u "KNOW" its over at keshiks.

Knowing the scpoe of the game makes it possbile to calculate the usefullness of different ideas. Such as the pay off beetween early currency or colossus, or building a libary in a city before military...



Also of course its a no brainer, that we shouldnt have let our efforts divindle away after the first few turnsets. But as far as it goes for me, real life was just way too painfull. Working long hours, messed up private life, and strugleing to finish the last 2-3 exams of my diploma were quiet a strugle...

So when is the next one starting?
 
And I must say, I cant imagine better captain for The Ninja Team than you, Keath. It is you, who made the team and who lead us trough this first SGOTM. And it is you who most deserves the congrats for our success as a team.

Hats down for Captain Keath! :hatsoff: Hip-hip hooray for the captain!

As a Captain, I should be a more knowledgeable player. I'm still learning a lot of things, details that most players know that leave a lot of room for improvement. If I lead by example, my example is to say dumb things that show up my novice ability.
 
:salute: And the Captain salutes the team! :high5: :cheers:

Thank you 2metra. It has been an honour and a pleasure. I hope we can all do this again. And when it comes to winning, it's like my favourite hockey team, next time..... :D
 
yep ;) my "final thought" (ok, im not j. springer :p ) about the weekend :D
 
First I want to include my thanks and gratulations to the whole team and to Captain Keath in particular. I am sorry I didn't have time to do much in the latter part of the game. In fact, tonight (just 15 mins ago) is the first time I've not had something immediate over my head that I had to finish.

yeah, I'm sorry. Thats true. But I still maintain that we didn't "KNOW" we have to win at Galley+axe+catapult. (with later maces)

About my part in this. It is true that I have some experince (quite a lot actually) with high level archi maps (usually higher that Emperor), but I also made it clear that this did not involve conquest or domination. If our goal was say Diplomatic, I could have guided us much better. The way things turned out, there is no doubt we were to slow going to war, for different reasons, as have already been commented on by others. One thing I do prioritize higher compared to what we did, is exploring WBs. That is important for a diplo game as well as our game. I guess I didn't stress this point hard enough during our early game.

-jj-
 
As a spectator I have to say your team get on so well.

A good captain can make or break a team. Keath has done a great job with you lot. You have all backed him up well too. :goodjob:

This is what all new teams should be about and I only hope you all come back for the next game and keep the TNT team going. :king:
 
Thank you Gumbolt, for your kind comments and encouragement! :thumbsup: I agree with you about our team, a nice fit. We lost a couple of signups fairly early which I guess is to be expected for first time players who are also new to the forum.

In previous games I've followed along with your team's moves, too, and I'm glad your team decided to SIP this time. We considered this for some time before deciding to settle the PH but I really wondered how SIP would turn out. I guess both our teams missed going for an early conquest as this was better than any of the other choices including where to settle.

@enKage - who is j. springer? :confused:

@jj - I was particularly happy to have your input for this game and really hope you'll be back, along with the rest of the team, too, for the next one. :goodjob:

@fizban - RL issues always seem to pop up and pull us away from the game at times and that seems to have been the case with several of our players.

Anyway, I think now that we know each other that our next game should be even more successful. I don't know when that will be but I for one will keep an ear to the ground and post here when I find out.

Hope your summer is warmer than it is here - grey, cloudy and a cold wind from the snow capped mountains across the Strait. Brrr....
 
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