SGOTM 13 - Unusual Suspects

[Indiansmoke]

Pyramids is needed for sure, representation scientists seem the only way forward here. That does not exclude the rush though.

The rush will not come before we have at least 2 cities plus capital so we can grow making galleys and slave settlers and by then we will hopefully locate the ai to see who it is and how far they are. Normally an 8 axe rush followed by a second wave of another 4 or so should do teh job if they are close enough and have no copper.

 

[kcd_swede]

So... settle 1NE from the stone so that both fish and stone are in the innner ring of city2? Need Masonry for pyramids. I'd put that before Mysticism, myself, since the worker is bored and would very much like to make a quarry. Need to build a wb for the fish and then another settler. I'd whip the galley, too.

If we find the enemy, then we can settle city3 on the copper and do an axe rush. If we can't find them or they are too far away, then we can think are about city 3 settling.

 

[Indiansmoke]

So... settle 1NE from the stone so that both fish and stone are in the innner ring of city2? Need Masonry for pyramids. I'd put that before Mysticism, myself, since the worker is bored and would very much like to make a quarry. Need to build a wb for the fish and then another settler. I'd whip the galley, too.

If we find the enemy, then we can settle city3 on the copper and do an axe rush. If we can't find them or they are too far away, then we can think are about city 3 settling.

Yeap that is the plan I have in mind as well. Although some more detailed plan on the slaving is needed.

Also note that if we build pyramids we can get an engineer in 50 turns to bulb machinery for fast maces rush..

 

[Deckhand]

So... settle 1NE from the stone so that both fish and stone are in the innner ring of city2? Need Masonry for pyramids. I'd put that before Mysticism, myself, since the worker is bored and would very much like to make a quarry. Need to build a wb for the fish and then another settler. I'd whip the galley, too.

If we find the enemy, then we can settle city3 on the copper and do an axe rush. If we can't find them or they are too far away, then we can think are about city 3 settling.

^ Agree
See, it's this kind of compassionate leadership (always thinking about the needs of the workers) that made kcd such a great leader (before we threw him overboard).

Yeap that is the plan I have in mind as well. Although some more detailed plan on the slaving is needed.

Also note that if we build pyramids we can get an engineer in 50 turns to bulb machinery for fast maces rush..

Does this assume civil service from the Oracle? or just a generally good idea to get maces sooner?

I've never done this - I would use the GE to build the Great Library or somesuch.

 

[kcd_swede]

^ Agree
See, it's this kind of compassionate leadership (always thinking about the needs of the workers) that made kcd such a great leader (before we threw him overboard).

Does this assume civil service from the Oracle? or just a generally good idea to get maces sooner?

I've never done this - I would use the GE to build the Great Library or somesuch.

I don't know... a CS sling on emperor level without any commerce tiles... while also building the pyramids... doesn't sound very feasible. Maybe if we bulbed mathematics... but even then, I'm sceptical.

Lets think about the big picture here. We are aiming at conquest, so we don't need a great deal of technology. Astro/Mil Trad/rifles and maybe steel. If we go any farther than that we might as well resign.

'Mids would be to get us to those techs well ahead of the enemy. Obviously, a cottage economy would suck on this map (at least until we have gotten on a large landmass). So a Repr-boosted specialist econ is the way to go. And that leads to bulbing along the Edu/Astro lines.

CS/machinery for maces will probably be the start... since wb's can reach us there must be a galley access somewhere (unless those wb's were added in WB in order to mislead, which I doubt). So a CS-sling would sure be nice... but the Bur bonus is not huge with our capitol, so we could tech than manually if needed.

I would say that if we have an axe-rush opportunity to take advantage of, we must give up any ideas of getting both 'Mids and a CS-sling by Oracle. Mids probably more important here.

Without any axe-rush opportunity presenting itself, it probably is worth a shot to get 'mids and CS-sling. We should at least get the 'mids.

Here is an alternative: Pyramids, Oracle for Metalcasting, GE for machinery. Tech CS. Bulb to astro. Liberalize Mil Trad (or steel or Nationalism if we are pressed). Then kill, kill them all!

 

[narri]

PPP

Goal: Explore while getting second city up!

I'm still experimenting with the whip timings, it looks like this:

Paris (come on, let's get a better name there): Galley (whipped 2nd turn)>WB>LH (cheap with Organized)>Worker. Only whip is for galley such that worker roads stone right when Masonry completes. After dropping off the new city, Galley explores west a little, then heads back to ferry 2nd worker.

One turn of 0% to pay for the Masonry research to start, then 100% full blast. Note that adding a city makes research go from +13 to +20 (+2x2 trade routes, +1 city, +2 fish).

Research: Masonry>Finish Myst (monument implies +1 happy for us! and second city needs it anyway to get the other hill)>???(need some input here, too many things look good, maybe even IW to see if we pull some luck on that)

AI relations: Peace be with them all (until we find their capital, of course )

Spreadsheets are fun to play with. I even managed to get the food and hammers to line up using the test save (though not the research).

Current WB continues exploring northeast, where we really should find them (or start suspecting something). I find it really interesting that they even have WB exploring on turn 60 (and evidentially having already explored significantly). I think a rush is going to be in order due to sheer distance.

Pray that we find the AI with TGL.

 

[vra379971]

Green from me!

And a name?

Simple, Portoferraio!

 

[kcd_swede]

Green from me up to Mysticism finished. After that, I would like to get libraries churning out GSci's as soon as possible... though this could actually wait until we have Pyramids/Repr to make it more effective. Should at least have a library to go when the 'Mids will finish. But we'll need to discuss more... and should have better explored by then to help the decision.

Didn't know we get +1 for monuments, though. Nice. We have stone... the 'Henge might actually be something... though I don't really want a bunch of GPro's.

Portoferraio would be appropriate name, but it is long and hard to spell. I suggest "Elba" is easier for when we want shorthand... and it will be the only city on that island.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I don't agree with the plan.

We don't need second worker and stone is not a rush to improve. We should grow making galleys to keep axe rush alive and use the whip for settlers. 5 cities up asap is crucial.

Of course if we decide to skip axe rush and go for pyramids straight away then the plan is wrong again as we should grow making pyramids and stop to slave settler and then overflow and repeat.


So generally I think it should be this.

Whip galley settle near stone fish. Overflow to lighthouse, finish lighthouse, make workboat, reach size 6 and make settler, 3 pop whip settler, overflow to pyramids or galley depending on our plan, then grow with pyramids or galleys, size 6 another settler, 3 pop whip again and repeat.

This is the plan I have in mind roughly, have not checked if 3 pop whips work or 2 pop whips would be better.

So IMO you should play up to masonry discovery, maybe we have more info on ai location by then and can decide better?

 

[kcd_swede]

I don't agree with the plan.

We don't need second worker and stone is not a rush to improve. We should grow making galleys to keep axe rush alive and use the whip for settlers. 5 cities up asap is crucial.

Of course if we decide to skip axe rush and go for pyramids straight away then the plan is wrong again as we should grow making pyramids and stop to slave settler and then overflow and repeat.


So generally I think it should be this.

Whip galley settle near stone fish. Overflow to lighthouse, finish lighthouse, make workboat, reach size 6 and make settler, 3 pop whip settler, overflow to pyramids or galley depending on our plan, then grow with pyramids or galleys, size 6 another settler, 3 pop whip again and repeat.

This is the plan I have in mind roughly, have not checked if 3 pop whips work or 2 pop whips would be better.

So IMO you should play up to masonry discovery, maybe we have more info on ai location by then and can decide better?

Oh yeah... good points. We already have a worker with too little useful to do. So a settler is a far better investment than another worker.

Galley (whipped 2nd turn)>WB>LH (cheap with Organized)>Worker. Only whip is for galley such that worker roads stone right when Masonry completes. After dropping off the new city, Galley explores west a little, then heads back to ferry 2nd worker.

Hopefully its not to late to modify that plan?

 

[narri]

Not too late at all. IS's insights are pretty good. My main concern is that we have no clue where to place 5 good cities without a good scout. The statement about the Worker versus Settler is totally correct, it really should be a settler. Still iffy on whether LH before WB really works for me (I want to whip an exploring WB from the new city as its first build). Anyway, still plenty of time to decide for how much settler whipping (and with how many pop).

So the new version of the plan:

Pause at Masonry and/or find an AI city.

Galley (whip 2nd turn)>WB>LH>Settler (to whip)
Send settler + worker to new city between stone and fish, start roading stone until Masonry (because there's nothing better to do with the worker), make Quarry.

Explore NE with current WB, Galley explores west a little bit (should come back before next round of settler + other unit).

For a while, I'll assume that we're going to end up rushing the AI while getting Pyramids (so Oracle off the table). Still will probably research Myst sooner rather than later for the happiness.

Should be able to play this tonight given approvals.

 

[kcd_swede]

Not too late at all. IS's insights are pretty good. My main concern is that we have no clue where to place 5 good cities without a good scout. The statement about the Worker versus Settler is totally correct, it really should be a settler. Still iffy on whether LH before WB really works for me (I want to whip an exploring WB from the new city as its first build). Anyway, still plenty of time to decide for how much settler whipping (and with how many pop).

So the new version of the plan:

Pause at Masonry and/or find an AI city.

Galley (whip 2nd turn)>WB>LH>Settler (to whip)
Send settler + worker to new city between stone and fish, start roading stone until Masonry (because there's nothing better to do with the worker), make Quarry.

Explore NE with current WB, Galley explores west a little bit (should come back before next round of settler + other unit).

For a while, I'll assume that we're going to end up rushing the AI while getting Pyramids (so Oracle off the table). Still will probably research Myst sooner rather than later for the happiness.

Should be able to play this tonight given approvals.

I'm OK with this. Seems like everything's being taken into account and the pause after masonry is good idea. With some luck, we should know how close our targets are by then. But either way we'll have more time to decide.

I think if Indiansmoke is OK with it you can go ahead, the others were ok with the basics up to that point, I think. I'll PM him and ask him to give it a look.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Not too late at all. IS's insights are pretty good. My main concern is that we have no clue where to place 5 good cities without a good scout. The statement about the Worker versus Settler is totally correct, it really should be a settler. Still iffy on whether LH before WB really works for me (I want to whip an exploring WB from the new city as its first build). Anyway, still plenty of time to decide for how much settler whipping (and with how many pop).

So the new version of the plan:

Pause at Masonry and/or find an AI city.

Galley (whip 2nd turn)>WB>LH>Settler (to whip)
Send settler + worker to new city between stone and fish, start roading stone until Masonry (because there's nothing better to do with the worker), make Quarry.

Explore NE with current WB, Galley explores west a little bit (should come back before next round of settler + other unit).

For a while, I'll assume that we're going to end up rushing the AI while getting Pyramids (so Oracle off the table). Still will probably research Myst sooner rather than later for the happiness.

Should be able to play this tonight given approvals.

IMO workboat should go to the tip of the island and if no passage there (which is the most probable) to go back and wait on the fish for new city and improve fish on settling, then new city can whip a galley which will pick up our next settler so that first galley can explore west.

Not sure about the timing of the whip, but it seems that 6 turns to grow to pop 2 that is 6 hammers and another 8 turns with 3 hammers, so it can be whipped for 1 pop at 14 turns...when does the settler come, is it earlier?

 

[narri]

I actually think the complete opposite about the passageway. kcd reported that the AI workboats were spotted in the SE. There's no passage there, and our culture sight would have spotted boats coming from the west. So either there's a passage NE, or the mapmaker really wants to screw with our heads.

OK... turnset played. We have met Joao (his wb approached from the stone). We hav met Victoria (our wb3 met her wb next to the jungle-copper). Those two have met each other and Vicky is "pleased" with Joao.

If you so happen to be right about the no passageway, though, totally agree with the immediate fish settle into whip galley. I have settler with max-overflow 2-pop one turn before galley with the current plan minus the capital building a WB. So the galley could explore anyway.

Problem is that the WB can't go out far enough to tell whether there is a passage or not while getting back. So the fish remains unimproved for at least one turn. This means that galley is then 2 turns behind settler (unless I wait for 1-pop max overflow).

Or we trust my gut feeling and just send the galley east without exploring with WB.

So maybe we do this:
WB explores NE. If there is a passage there, turn back and the first galley will go that way. If there isn't, go back and the galley will go west. It's about a 2-turn delay in exploring if there is a passage to the NE (essentially free if it's not). The fish will also be put down 1 turn after the city is built, delaying the galley whip by 1 turn (I can't go out and come back quickly enough). Thoughts? 1-pop or 2-pop the settler?

 

[Deckhand]

I'm green in general. I think getting the fishing nets out is higher priority than a turn or two exploring. Since we don't know where settler is going yet, I think 1 pop. Whether 1 or 2 pop whip it is key to maximize overflow.

 

[kcd_swede]

If its any use to help the decision... I've looked at the Progress charts and see no sign of any team powering up (and most teams are 20-40 turns ahead of us). There are some teams with big culture increase, indicating probably a Wonder was built, though.

If we want to assume that they have discovered more map than us and have not chosen to power up, maybe we should go under the assumption that we aren't going to find the AI right away, no matter which way we turn.

A general guideline is that if you need something to happen (like finding the passage where you expect it to be) in order to get the fastest victory, assume it will be there and plan accordingly. If not, you aren't any worse off than if you did not plan for the fastest victory.

Sorry... not much help in this discussion. I'm like Deckhand, in general agreement with the alternatives presented. Would say based on the chart analysis that improving the fish earlier is better than exploring an extra turn or two.

If Narri and Indiansmoke can agree on a course of action, thats great... you've got my green. If not, and the disagreements is minor, the active player has to take precedence since he'll be the one implementing and reacting, imo, and you've got my green. Maybe the captain Vra can weigh in as well to mediate the disagreements?

 

[Indiansmoke]

20-40 turns on epic is to that much so it is normal that no team has powered up. For next set I think that nari has the plan right so it is green from me to play the way he described in lat post. Only comment is that we should focus on 2 or even 3 pop slaves, 1 pop slaves are ineffective, it does not matter if settler waits 1-2 turns 2 pop slaves are still much better. Also next city does not have to be copper, it can be the island west close to capital. So green an good luck!

 

[narri]

Played up to Masonry discovery. There indeed was a passage in the NE.... a lot more passage than I wanted to see:


We may want to insert a WB build right after the settler and the overflow to Pyramids to see the extent of our isolation to the west.

Any suggestions as to explore path would be greatly appreciated.

Thinking about LH>Settler (2-pop @ max overflow)>Pyramids 1 turn>WB (explore west) in Elba. Galley (whip)>WB(whip) in the newly formed Stony Brook.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Ok, so next 4 turns are straight forward, tech mystisim, improve stone, continue scouting at will and start settler after lighthouse.

But what do we do after mystisism? looks like pottery, writting is the way?

 

[Indiansmoke]

Ok, so next 4 turns are straight forward, tech mystisim, improve stone, continue scouting at will and start settler after lighthouse.

But what do we do after mystisism? looks like pottery, writting is the way?

Only thing to look out for is make sure we have stone connected before slaving settler at max overflow. If stone not connected yet then make workboat for a few turns.