SGOTM 14 - Spooks

[markh]

Hm, we are kind of slow here. Who is going to start us off ?

 

[Andronicus]

Hm, we are kind of slow here.

Well, I guess a new spreadsheet would be good using cow without BG - I tried adapting Più Freddo's but I didnt understand why it shows 3 food accumulated at 4000BC.

As far as I can determine warrior, curragh, worker works out with minimal wastage of shields - I agree the early worker is the way to go. By irrigating cow, then roading, move to plains ivory, roading, then to wheat and irrigate / road, we get first a warrior for mp at size 2, worker delays growing to size 3 and when we do we have ivory connected and 5fpt thus allowing 100% science in early stages.

The next question would appear to be early settler or granary - I think we need to wait for early scouting to make that decision. Settler first allows us to get the next best nearby site, granary first allows early 4turnSF and more total towns, provided the AI leaves us with the room.

Of the 2 teams to have played their first 20 turns, only Ivan has already settled their 2nd town at turn 20. I think they went early settler, Klarius could still have gone early settler and be about to settle.

A couple of comments from my trial games
- if AI not close, barbs can be a nuisance
- settling space runs out sooner than usual with crowded map which I think resulted in AI being more aggressive earlier, esp if human is weak militarily, but big (ie successful expansion phase)

 

[Paul#42]

No problem here with shooting slower than the others - good ol' Spooks tradition

We need to put up a line-up nevertheless. Tough to do with that many new players. I hope everyone will be fine with it - if not, please speak up!

I'd like Più to be leading off to honor his effort with the spread sheet - if nobody objects.
I'd put Andro also at the top of the order (#2) and markh and me at the end. Any other preferences?

Più - up
Andro - on deck
Yilar
Paul
Markh
Denyd - needs time to install the mod pack
CF - just lurking - maybe more later?

We'll start with a set of ~20 turns and continue with sets of 10 turns. Any player will stop if there are surprises or imporant decisions to take for the team.

I'm not too convinced to build a curragh first. Contacts are nice and important but nobody will help us to get Writing faster than commerce.
Of course we should have some contacts quickly then to trade for tech parity.

My spread sheets also tells me that we get less waste if we do warrior before curragh (just like Andro pointed out) and start using the wine rather than the cow...



I'll try some more calculations tomorrow, especially with an early worker inside there allowing us +5fpt quicker...

And just in case there's no tradition of naming cities, how about Casper for the capital. After all he's the most famous Ghost (Spook) I've ever heard of.

We never cared too much for stuff like that - but we might do. Might gain some "points" if we should do a spoiler this time...
I'd rather call it Casper's Castle because I love alliterations

 

[Andronicus]

I'm not too convinced to build a curragh first. Contacts are nice and important but nobody will help us to get Writing faster than commerce.
Of course we should have some contacts quickly then to trade for tech parity.

Contacts wont be all that important for researching writing, but the more contacts we have and the sooner we can get them, the more we can extract from the AI
I am thinking a fast research pace globally will speed things up to where we have capacity to reach a domination victory. After all it is not just reaching domination that counts but reaching it fastest (OK, and keepin as many AI alive as poss). Getting literature and republic out to the AI earlier than our rivals (ie the other SGOTM teams) would seem beneficial to me (I look forward to hearing counter arguments).
Earlier curraghs will certainly speed those contacts - think SGOTM12.
Knowing plenty of scientifics at the age change should give us the chance to advance the techs, whilst our greater contacts should allow us to trade our way to the front.
Any thoughts on what units people think we will require for waging war - I'm still of the opinion it will be at least cavs

My spread sheets also tells me that we get less waste if we do warrior before curragh (just like Andro pointed out) and start using the wine rather than the cow...

Using the wine delays growth by a turn so we would have 12 food in the bin rather than 8 after 4 turns (after which icow allows 4fpt), so both work out neatly - wines delays growth a turn but gives extra 2cpt - I favour growth early - getting setters out ASAP may be important.

I'd rather call it Casper's Castle

Sounds good to me - Haunted Hollow, Spooky Swamp and Ghoul's Graveyard are the best I can do, sorry

Thinking about our build options - it appears to me we have choices depending on how crowded our start position is
A) Alone on our starting island - seems improbable since we appear to have plenty of surrounding land -> no rush, 4 turn SF is obvious choice here.
B) Crowded with lots of AI just in the fog - again unlikely, but in this instance we might want a settler out ASAP - turn 11 is possible if immed irr cow - grows to size 2 in 6 turns and size 3 in 11 turns, 2spt 5 turns, 4 on growth, 3spt 4 turns, then 5 on growth -> 31 and settler turn 11, but then we have size 1 town again and no early curragh nor warrior mp. Still worth a thought.
C) Sharing starting island but AI further away giving us chance to get best nearby spot and maybe 2-3 others before having to cram any extras in. I consider this scenario most likely - the warrior, curragh, worker, settler order fits with getting the best avail spot - the question would then be whether to go granary next or just put out those extra 3 or 4 settlers every 8 turns growing 5spt. Even so granary before settler may still be best - we may lose out on 1 spot, but have best opportunity to fill up the rest.

The above will depend on what the scout finds in its first few moves, we just need to be flexible to adapt to what is revealed.

PS
Roster sounds fine
No rush, but lets not stagnate.

 

[Paul#42]

Using the wine delays growth by a turn so we would have 12 food in the bin rather than 8 after 4 turns (after which icow allows 4fpt), so both work out neatly - wines delays growth a turn but gives extra 2cpt - I favour growth early - getting setters out ASAP may be important.

At least in the "granary first scenario" it turns out nicely with finishing the granary the turn before growth.

But an early worker might still win it after all. That's to be proved.
Sorry, I had no time during weekend to do more analysis

And we should also make up our mind where to send the scout. S for quick contacts or N to circle for good sites first.

 

[Andronicus]

And we should also make up our mind where to send the scout. S for quick contacts or N to circle for good sites first.

Not sure what your reason for saying quick contacts is, I thought the immed priority of scout is to scout our immed vicinity to find best sites for towns and discover how close (if we are not alone) the AI are. This will determine which strategy - early settler before granary, very early settler, granary then 4turner or just settlers. As soon as our immed vicinity is scouted then he can be sent to explore the rest of our island, if it is large. My thinking of the best way to do that is avoid the 1 move options, so I think the following is a very good suggestion ...

How about starting the scout to N-NW and let him draw a clockwise circle around our capital to look for best spots to settle?

Now who was the bright spark with this suggestion ...

 

[Più Freddo]

Got it.

I'll settle in place and make a screen-shot.

Scout N, NW appears to be the next move.

As far as I have understood, we'll want to do some more
spread-sheeting before going any further. I expect to
post my contribution today.

Thanks for trusting me to do the first moves.

Portugal's competitors:

Rome
Egypt
Greece
Babylon
Germany
Russia
China
America
Japan
India
Persia
Zululand
Iroquois
France
Mongols
Aztecs
Arabia
Ottomans
Korea
Sumeria
Hittites
Celts
Maya
Inca​

 

[Paul#42]

Now who was the bright spark with this suggestion ...

Maybe I was just missing approval to this...

Now we just have to solve the first worker tasks...
Too bad I did not check the early worker variant yesterday...
But we got a lot to do and should connect both luxuries before reaching size 5 (or even 4?)... This indeed calls for a second worker quickly.
warrior-curragh-worker-granary / settler?

At least in my granary-first-variant, timing calls for working the wine the first 4 turns...
Not sure if that turn of delayed growth is worth the extra 8g in other variants, too...

 

[Andronicus]

I'll settle in place and make a screen-shot.

Scout N, NW appears to be the next move.

Maybe screen shot after 1st scout move?

Portugal's competitors:

Well that is consistent with AllanH's note that we are the only seafaring civ - and all the rest are included.

 

[Andronicus]

I have done a spreadsheet for builds warrior, curragh, worker, granary, SF for comparison purposes.

I have used mined BG as that more quickly improved, but once wine is mined that is used instead and mBG can go to another town.

Ivory connects IBT after growing to size 3, so lux slider not necessary then

The chop goes to first settler as chop to granary would still produce granary at size 5.

edit - unfortunately it wont upload as it is an invalid file apparently (.xls) anyone know how to work around this?

 

[Più Freddo]

I've made spread-sheets for the following options:

1. Wi-Gr-Wo, work the Wine for the first four turns, build Warrior-Curragh-Granary-Worker-Warrior-Settlers
2. Wi-Wo-Gr, work the Wine for the first four turns, build Warrior-Curragh-Worker-Granary-Settlers
3. Ca-Wo_Gr, work the Cattle from the beginning, build order as number 2.

Working the Cattle when building Worker after Granary doesn't make sense, as growth is then too fast in relation to Granary completion.

I'd say that the first alternative is better, since it is slightly faster while sqeezing in an extra MP Warrior.

I've not explored the possibility to irrigate the Ivory first. If someone is interested, please do so and compare the result, e.g. as I've done using the dates for

• first settler
• discovery of Writing as first tech (274 beakers)
• discovery of Philosophy as second tech (205 beakers)

Benchmarks are:

• 2550 BC
• 2510 BC
• 1910 BC

I've made a screen-shot at 4000 BC after settling as well.

As a third point to discuss we have the general strategy. It appears, that we want to research Writing A.S.A.P., then Philosophy I guess, hoping to have met enough others to be able to trade for useful techs using Phiosophy in the Big Picture and then choose an expensive monopoly tech as bonus. Is this correct? Other options?

What about Golden Age? We can get one for Colossus. Any chances at that? Or The Great Lighthouse, maybe better. Of course we'd need a very good location for a second city. We could pump it up with Settlers from the Factory if we run out of places to settle.

 

[Più Freddo]

I have used mined BG as that more quickly improved

Why? We don't technically need any 2 spt tile at size 5..7. We have six 1 spt tiles. Mining the Wine only means we can work the Oysters instead of a BG on river, a gain of 1 gpt half the time.

Which gives me the idea to road the BG instead of mining the Wine! Why didn't I think of that before? Back to the spread-sheet...

unfortunately it wont upload as it is an invalid file apparently (.xls) anyone know how to work around this?

Zip it before upload.

 

[Andronicus]

I've downloaded PF's spreadsheet to compare it to mine and because it has the same name it overwrote mine (2 hours of spreadsheeting down the drain )
I'll try to re do it (shouldn't take so long second time), then can compare.

Zip it before upload

Thanks I will


edit
PS I dont see anything else of interest in the screenshot (edit2 - I see we have an extra BG and its on a river) - is it worth at least moving the scout?

 

[Yilar]

I'm ready to play

 

[Andronicus]

Its 4am here and I have to go to work in 3 hours so I'd better get some sleep - I couldnt reproduce my spreadsheet. With granary first we could get granary and settlers sooner (I think I make it 1 turn or 3 turns but no worker), but we would be operating size 4.5-6.5 with less commerce tiles being used (we would have to use BGs and only one is on a river) so I dont think this is as good as PF's no 3. If we are crowded then we will probably need settler before granary. I'm happy for PF to play on till we know how near our neighbours are, until then it is uncertain which of his options is best.

 

[Paul#42]

Yes, Più, go ahead with Option 1 (Wi-Gr-Wo).
This also keeps settler first open on growth to size 4 in turn 16 in case we are about to be hemmed in.

Please take a break if opportunities for trades or another cattle farm shows up...

I'm ready to play

That's great but you'll have to wait a couple of turns...

 

[Andronicus]

As a third point to discuss we have the general strategy. It appears, that we want to research Writing A.S.A.P., then Philosophy I guess, hoping to have met enough others to be able to trade for useful techs using Phiosophy in the Big Picture and then choose an expensive monopoly tech as bonus. Is this correct? Other options?

We should consider once we get writing - if we are first there and we are running high commerce - do we dare to try CoL - phil for free rep?
The potential gains are huge, the downside is little since we would still likely have good trade from CoL. Perhaps the best comparison would be if we went writing, philo and free CoL (although I suspect we would probably take a more expensive tech like construction). The difference would be only the extra philo in the latter option, and if beaten to philo in the first option, we still have likelihood of trading for it. Then we would need to consider relative chances of getting CoL and phil first vs getting philo first and finding AI with CoL already. Anyway, we dont need to decide yet.

What about Golden Age? We can get one for Colossus. Any chances at that? Or The Great Lighthouse, maybe better. Of course we'd need a very good location for a second city. We could pump it up with Settlers from the Factory if we run out of places to settle.

I doubt we could get the early wonders, even GLH there are likely to be many AI on coast who would cascade. Perhaps the best chance is in the capital if we run out of settling spots. The other risk is these may give a despotic GA.
GLib is likely to be doable unless we get lit demanded off us and lose in a wonder cascade. Do we want to spend 400 shields on it though?
I think Magellan's is likely to be a better bet and timed with cranking out cavs should be able to set up the end game.
I mentioned it before, but ask again - how deep are we likely to have to go with research - is cavalry enough? Maybe carracks and cavs (to transport our cav armies?)

edit
On crowded map with little options for settlers, AI will often go into wonder building early. Also if SGOTM12 is anything to go by, research is likely to be slower than usual for the AI as they wont be able to expand as much - many will be stuck at 2 or 3 productive towns and maybe something crappy squeezed in. Also if true 'pelago as AllanH indicated, isolated AI likely to be slower to make contacts and trade (hence rep slingshot may not be impossible)

 

[denyd]

It is my expierence that the AI values Map Making above Code of Laws & Philosophy, so if we are the first to Writing, I favor a CoL & Philosophy path to get us to Republic first.

If we aren't the first to Writing, then I suggest Philosophy hoping to get it first and then take Literature in hopes of going for the Great Library.

 

[ControlFreak]

CF - just lurking - maybe more later?

Actually, I was planning on playing, but if you want to keep it to six for now, I don't mind just lurking.

I've been quiet because I've had a lot of RL stuff going on. I should be free by Wednesday to particpate a little more.

With PF finding the wine solution to keeping gpt high, I think the irrigating of the ivory is put to bed. I agree with proceeding on option 1, stopping if AI are extremely close.

 

[Andronicus]

Ok, I've crunched some numbers and I think we could get writing, Col and phil by turn 55 (ie 1625BC) for the rep slingshot. Will that beat the AI? - I think we would be unlucky if beaten, but its no certainty.

My calculations are based on Più's spreadsheet option 1 (ie using wines to max commerce)
As per spreadsheet - writing turn 31 2510BC

Then capital continues at ave of sl over 15bpt - I've assumed 15.
I estimate subsequent towns to take 3 moves to settle (hopefully we have roaded at least 1 tile towards site)
2nd town should produce 3bpt at size 1, 4bpt at size 2 (I conservatively base my beakers and growth on 2fpt surplus only and 1bpt commerce tiles worked)
3rd town should do 3bpt at sizes 1 and 2
4th and 5th towns I allowed only 2bpt
As you can see this is quite conservative

Turn 32 15bpt
Turns 33-36 18bpt (2nd town settled)
Turns 37-40 21bpt (3rd town settled)
Turns 41-42 23bpt (4th town settled)
Turns 43-44 24bpt (town 2 size 2)
Turns 45-47 26bpt (town 5 settled)
Total 343beakers - require 342 for CoL 1870BC - turn 47

Then 26bpt for 8 turns gives 208 beakers providing philo (205) 1625BC - turn 55

- 30bpt would get philo 1 turn earlier
- option of taxmen (edit2 doh! I meant scientists of course as Paul also mentions in later post)not appealing to me, but of it shaves a turn off then might be preferable to working an unimproved grassland or bg with shield lost in corruption.


If I've made any horrible errors please point them out, but it appears to me we may even get them sooner.
I'm not certain whether my calculations accurately take into account the lux slider - we would benefit from a 2nd warrior in capital and ivory + wines connected.
Also costs of granary and any unit excess (prior to settling 2nd town), but these would be met out of selling starting techs to backwards AI.