Short Term Fix for Conquest AI's lack of defense

[Lone Wolf]

You don't seem to have much of an idea of merging works. If you merge something, it is your business. period.

Depends on what you're merging. Better AI's are supposed to transcend mod boundaries.

Though I'll take note of it when after FfH patch k someone starts praising you. I'll be quick to point out that that patch was none of your business, had nothing at all to do with you, and, therefore, only Kael deserves the praise.

Oh, I get it. If someone merges Sephi's mod and people start praising him for it, he takes some responsibility for it. If someome begins to criticize him, it's totally not his responsibility!

Incomplete merge without the nigh continuous improvements and updates Sephi has been adding.

That what's I've been initially saying. However, Sephi's continuous patting himself on the back after the merge made me wonder...

Give the Mod a serious try or go away.

I don't want to download all the extra stuff that goes with the mod, like "mana guardians", "noble houses", etc. And, apparently, that's the only way for me to legitimately test Sephi's AI, since what happens in base FfH, is, like, totally not his concern (but when someone criticises him)! Though OK, I will try it right now. Let's see does Sephi's attitude match with his skills...

 

[Sephi]

Try not to feed the troll, Sephi.

that's what I also think. I also don't see that the posts should be deleted by a modder. When people see how much hate is in his posts and that he turns everything into a personal attack it is easier to agree to continue the discussion without him.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

the extra stuff is optional, most of it is modules or gameoptions and you can choose not to use it. the guy has been placing a lot of effort towards keeping as msny changes as possible optional. I wouldn't have done that if I were him. play it my way or go away

that aside. Sephi, did you check out the posted savegame? spotted any suboptimal AI behaviour that could be improved?

do you want a hug?

 

[Lone Wolf]

the extra stuff is optional, most of it is modules or gameoptions and you can choose not to use it

Sure, but it adds more time to the download and takes more disk space. Anyway, I've downloaded it and posted my constructive feedback in the other AI thread.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

awesome, I'm glad we can get over this and start improving the mod.

 

[Sephi]

I don't know where you live Gekko, but where I live you can't insult someone and excuse your behavior by saying today is my trolling day. It is as Valkrionn said, if you are confronted by someone who thinks that he knows everything and talks in a very rude way, you loose most interest to listen to him.

I take a look at the save from DioAurion and when I am interested in modding again I will see if I can figure out something.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'm not interested in excusing anyone, I'm just glad it's over and he gave some useful feedback in the other thread

don't let one altercation steal your will to mod though, you're doing an awesome job and everyone and their dog knows it. the fact that one guy is very vocal about his issues can't overwhelm all the others who are pleased and grateful. and don't remember the amount of lurkers that will likely download the mod, enjoy it, and only post when they have issues

 

[wapamingo]

Being one of the lurkers Gekko mentions, I very much so enjoy playing your mod and I encourage you to continue with improving it. You have introduced a whole level of difficulty early-game that makes the game a solid fun to play, and this is not there in other mods (2 wars is just fine in other mods, barbs don't think but 1-by-1 attack you, whereas in your mod they'll wait to get the 12-unit stack goin if there are 3 barb cities around you), amongs the many other improvements you had done.

Of course, there is always more work ahead but keep at it. The community truly appreciates your efforts.

Here are some issues that I've encountered while playing (I play MP games only, but should be the same in single-player). These have probably been noted/discussed before, but as a lurker I tend to just blah-blah my own stuff and don't read well all of the threads.

(1) Creation mana: oasis spawns too much (great!) but spawns on resources as well (so cannot build plantation). Can you make it so that it does not to so or that you can build over oasis if it is on top of resource?

(2) AI defense: In every single MP game since 7.2, I had very very rarely seen archers defending AI towns. Its usually 2-3 swordsmen. This makes it relatively easy to take them out.

(3) AI stacks-of-doom: Just recently a stack-of-doom attacked my MP co-player who was playing as a Kuruotite. So he had very juicy cities. The stack-of-doom (Amurite) destoyed the defences of one of his cities and he had only a scout left. Instead of conquering it, the SoD moved on to his Capital. This bought me time to come in with me expeditionary force of cultists to help out take care of the SoD. Why bypass the 24-size defenseless city?

(4) I do love some of the "learning" the AI does (at least pre 7.2). In one game I was Khazad and was attacked by Calabim AI. He had tons of Vamps + skellies. He went straight for my capital, bypassing my heavily defended border city (smart as I had over 15 archers there - pooled from all my other cities). In any case, I managed to get the defence ready at the Capital and he wasted half his army trying to take it out. He then decided to retreat. I could not harras his SoD well, but I was happy he was out of my lands. 10 turns later, the SoD is back with Catapults this time. The AI "learned" that he needs Colateral damage causing units. I was dismayed when I saw them, but was very impressed that the AI learned. I have not seen something like this in 7.2 - where there some AI changes?

(5) Trader leader trait is OP - especially in MP games (rush for Great Lighthouse + trade route increasing techs = +10 hammers/food very easily). Maybe make it like the Mazatl Lost Lands,
-50% trade yield but get food/hammers as well.

(6) It would be good to see a better threat from the seas as well, but I guess Pirates compensate for that

(7) Tower of Mastery / Lunator victory --> player is not forced to war nor is notified that the AI is building it. we lost a game once without knowing that indeed it was being built - we would have both entered the war - we were just left wondering why is everyone declearing war on this civ (we took it as a blessing as that civ was a massive vassal-holder)

(8) I agree with some of the comments I've read: better SoD management, have not seen many fireballs thrown at me or use of OO or AV priest damage spells. I am not complaining, but still

(9) OO or AV priest damage spells are OP especially as they are accessible as the basic priest. Please move that to the second generation priests (high priests) like the 'neutral' or 'good' priest have. I know its for Flavor, but its just way too OP when you can build limitless amounts of them. At a high-priest level, you an only build limited number of them so its more constricting.

 

[DioAurion]

I've seen plenty of the spells mentioned in 8 used against me ever since version 7.1 (AI with air magic though is still the most dangerous of all in my opinion). Also trader is OP only so long as you can maintain a peaceful world. It's also heavily dependent on the number of civs in your world so it's hard to find a good balance. I saw it's flaw when I summoned Auric as the trader illians and watched my economy nose-dive.

Maybe giving the trader trait some kind of negative impact towards relations with other civs might help balance it by making the player have to work harder to maintain their trading partners.

 

[Neomega]

Man, I mean I myself have used leaving cities undefended to great use in many games, BTS included. When you have city raider promoted units, you leave the city, and if the enemy rushes in.. boom, you get a 60 or 90% bonus against them again. Old AI's were stupid and fell for this. The WM AI, in my experience, does not just rush in and take back a city, unless they think they can hold it.

The AI I have seen in Wildmana has been SUPERB, and every time I see people saying, "I can do this to trick the AI, I can do that to trick the AI" I just think, so what? What is the point of rushing in and taking a city back, if the SOD will just go in and crush your dudes... again? I'm not one for sacrificing my units to make a point that I can retake a city. Also, many times, a city is just a terrain during a conquest, once its been captured, mission accomplished. Why hold it? The player who takes it back will get their culture back, yes, but everything inside has burned.

I mean, the Wildmana AI is cautious, like players are, it actually retreats from lost causes sometimes. It doesn't just get rope-a-doped, which is amazing, because in almost any game, Civ IV or otherwise, you will eventually find a strategy where the AI will fall for a trap... every single time, sending in their entire army somewhere, where you can crush it. I mean this in RTS and RPG's too.

Also, I have not noticed an increase in this so called "city trading" between this mod, and any other mod or BTS game I have ever played. It happens sometimes, yes... but so what? I still fail to see why this makes the AI weak.

I don't know man, the criticisms I read are so stupid sometimes. "It's too hard", "I don't like being harrassed", the "AI is dumb because it doesn't do XY or Z like I always do in my playstyle"

have not seen many fireballs thrown at me

try playing the luichirp with their golem fireballs.

(9) OO or AV priest damage spells are OP especially as they are accessible as the basic priest. Please move that to the second generation priests (high priests) like the 'neutral' or 'good' priest have. I know its for Flavor, but its just way too OP when you can build limitless amounts of them. At a high-priest level, you an only build limited number of them so its more constricting.

And then this!!! And yes, the AI uses them to great effect! Sometimes I wonder if the peopel writing these criticisms even have ever thought out what would happen if their suggestions really played out. It's like, "do this this and this to the AI, then it will rock"

2 weeks later, "the AI always does this this and this... and to counter I just have to do this"

I don't know how this AI is structured, but when I play it, I feel like it is doing some thinking. Seriously, it seems like it is actually thinking ahead, looking at possible traps, being wary of assassins, things like that. It doesn't feel like it is just running some pre-ordained script that after the third game, you'll be like, "oh, it has a stack of swordsmen, two archers, and 3 mages, it is definitely going to attack next turn"

Incomplete merge without the nigh continuous improvements and updates Sephi has been adding. I stopped playing FFH2 because patch J AI was more annoying then fun. I started playing FFH2 again because I tried out Wild Mana. Give the Mod a serious try or go away.

No doubt. I can't believe this guy. Never even played the mod, and is complaining about it!!! Sephi, if you have not found the serenity of the ignore function... find it now. I use it like crazy, and it will hep your sanity tremendously.

 

[DioAurion]

Hahah I only complain because I've learned in the past that whenever I complain, Sephi whips up something amazing in the near future that blows my expectations away. But I have to continue to argue my theory that the AI would be much stronger if they left their stack in place to quell rebellions in cities that they conquer.

If you can, for the cost of one unit sacrificing itself to rush in and capture back a city, make their stack u-turn one or two times, then you can change the tide of the war in your favor. That's exactly what I did in my Mercurian Game. The city the AI infernals lost their entire stack of doom over ended up being flipped by culture several turns later. They likely could have taken my capital and maintained the other city with better AI management. But in a lot of cases if the AI waits to quell the rebellion, not only will their stack be mostly healed, they might even have some cultural barrier to block single movement units from quickly rushing in to recapture the city. That's especially true in the early game when mounted units are rare and culture between cities doesn't overlap as often.

I know this request is getting pretty intense programming-wise. But I've seen what Sephi has done in the past and I believe it's well within his capabilities.

 

[scutarii]

when human has to use tricks against of AI, it means that AI is doing well.

 

[Sephi]

Hahah I only complain because I've learned in the past that whenever I complain, Sephi whips up something amazing in the near future that blows my expectations away. But I have to continue to argue my theory that the AI would be much stronger if they left their stack in place to quell rebellions in cities that they conquer.

I hope you have learned the lesson that a thread title like this will lure trolls who like to insult and bash others work. Try to be a bit more specific next time. Write what kind of "lack of defense" you mean and what "the usual ways" are.

when human has to use tricks against of AI, it means that AI is doing well.

right. If the AI always stays in a newly conquered city for Y turns, there are also lots of ways to abuse this. The only real improvement is to make AI behavior less predictable, but not chaotic. And that's beyond any short term change I think.

 

[DioAurion]

I challenge you from a strategy perspective to show some of the ways this could be abused by leaving stacks in this city for an average of 4 turns as opposed to immediately marching onwards with injured seige weaponry and no reinforcements.

One example from this current game to support my argument is when the Doviello led by Saverous conquered the central city in the grigori empire and then seemed like they knew they had to fight defensively from then on to win the war. Rather than marching straight out onto the next city, the majority of the units rested up in the city while a small band of high movement units pillaged the surrounding tiles that were still grigori owned.

Thus when the Grigori rallied a counter attack, they were forced to endure 2 turns of Doviello magical attacks rather than one or zero because the roads to the city had been completely cut off. I still remember cringing watching this play out and thinking back that I had used this same strategy to ruin a 5-1 opposition Balseraph in one of my first games of Fall From Heaven. The interesting part is then they marched in the opposite direction that they pillaged to conquer the now isolated SE grigori city, only after having crushed the entire mobile grigori forces.

I could be wrong but I feel that any strategy used to abuse the AI for remaining within a city would be less effective than using the same strategy on a stack that is in the open moving through your own lands. This is especially the case when I've seen the AI is capable (assuming the above wasn't an extremely rare AI occurrence) of switching part of its stack into these small raider bands to deal with incoming threats. The AI in the city has better defense from magic and heals faster. Massive numbers of city raider units is the only drawback I can see.

p.s.- When did we have to start worrying about trolls in the civ fanatics forum? I think I've only seen 2 trolls in my 4 years reading them.

 

[Sephi]

I challenge you from a strategy perspective to show some of the ways this could be abused by leaving stacks in this city for an average of 4 turns as opposed to immediately marching onwards with injured seige weaponry and no reinforcements.

4 waves of summons. Or you grab all AI cities with a high mobile army while they always need 4+ turns to take a city back.

 

[DioAurion]

I notice the AI does use my strategy sometimes but only after very difficult battles. The Banner just had a real brawl with the khazad and won, but nearly every unit in the stack was on the verge of death. They stayed in the city for 4 turns healing up, which gave the slow wave of crusaders time to arrive and set up garrison in the city. All but one catapult is now fully healed and they are on the march again with 4 defenders staying behind.

I guess I'll play some more and see how often things like that occur. Could be my aforementioned problems become less relevant later in the game.

And if you have 4 waves of summons strong enough to wipe that stack in a city.. you're going to wipe that stack en route to your next city anyway. It never had a chance

 

[Lone Wolf]

I must apologize for my trolling behaviour in this thread. While I may have maid a valid point or two in the cesspool of hostility I started, I had no right to behave like that.