Short Term Fix for Conquest AI's lack of defense

[[to_xp]Gekko]

oh, now I see it. you're pissed off at 5.0 AI. yeah, that had issues. shouldn't you blame Kael for merging an incomplete version then, instead of starting a personal issue against the modder?

 

[Lone Wolf]

oh, now I see it. you're pissed off at 5.0 AI. yeah, that had issues. shouldn't you blame Kael for merging an incomplete version then, instead of starting a personal issue against the modder?

The modder himself was constantly defending 5.0 anyway.

Kael should've merged Turinturambar's AI, but I can't blame the guy for not realizing The Vile Horrors of 5.0 beforehand...

 

[Valkrionn]

Today is my Trolling Day. Though admit, I do have a point...

Any point you feel you have is being destroyed by your argument method. Honestly, a certain player and I had a similar argument maybe two weeks ago in #Erebus (You know who you are. ), about animals/barbs in RifE. While I honestly agreed with most of his points, the method in which he made them (exactly as you're doing, being confrontational about it) pissed me off enough that I just about said screw it, and left it as is.

If you want to see change, fine. You don't believe Sephi will listen to the posts, fine. But do not become confrontational about it, because all you're going to do is make Sephi confrontational in return. You want to see changes, provide examples, rational arguments, and constructive criticism. Not attempting to 'imitate' him in a satirical way, not going on about how you dislike the modder himself, and certainly not basing your claims on an outdated merge.




EDIT: Also, what about the good parts of 5.0? I believe a spellcasting AI (while I disliked the method of implementation, the results were quite nice.... And admittedly, I haven't looked at it since 5.0, so the method could have changed) is a massive improvement.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

well he should have realized its flaws BEFORE merging it methinks. but I don't really wanna blame Kael, the issue here is that you're not pointing out issues of a mod in order to have them fixed, you're just flaming the guy. if you wanna do that, can't you send him a PM? I don't think people wanna see the thread derailed because you dislike him. you could maybe start another thread about "why Sephi is bad"

 

[Lone Wolf]

I don't think people wanna see the thread derailed because you dislike him. you could maybe start another thread about "why Sephi is bad"

I don't dislike him, I think that some of the stuff he thinks up is quite creative. I just think that he's being unreasonably defensive and dismissing each time he's being shown a problem, so I decided to do some feather-ruffling.

 

[Sephi]

"5.0 AI is better then the pre-merge one at navies" is a blatantly false statement. After that was pointed out to you you said that navies aren't important, so you don't care about them.

The evidence is clear.

If you quote, atleast do it with style

I also fail to see what a mod from which parts were merged some month ago has anything to do with how FFH is today. I personally prefere patch J naval AI to patch g but I agree that it could be improved a lot.

I stated my opinion. You can disagree with it, but you can't call it a lie.

You deliberately make incorrect statements for me to go berserk and post something stupid in capslock mode, right? Fact - after the 5.0 merge, scenarios were definitely playable (as in "load-able").

fact - in wildmana they were not playable (as the scenario file referenced to the ffh folder).

Good for you (and for FfH). But you've done a nice job of completely ignoring and dismissing all complaints before that.

The scenarios aren't part of my mod, so I ignore complaints about them. I also ignore complaints about FFH AI because I am not a member of the FFH team. I am a player just like you.

And now, I'm really curious, what will Sephi really write. Will my imitation have something in common with his actual answer?

honestly, after all you have written here, do you really expect an answer from me?

Today is my Trolling Day.

should make it easier to get a private team-forum one day

 

[Lone Wolf]

The scenarios aren't part of my mod, so I ignore complaints about them. I also ignore complaints about FFH AI because I am not a member of the FFH team.

For someone who ignores complaints FfH AI, you surely spent a lot of time defending it after the merge.

I stated my opinion. You can disagree with it, but you can't call it a lie.

Just your regular phsycho-speech. Claiming that "in my option, the sky is green" isn't that different from an outright "the sky is green".

The scenarios aren't part of my mod, so I ignore complaints about them.

The scenarios aren't - the AI that plays in the scenarios is. People were complaining about the AI that was in scenarios, not the scenarios thenselves.

honestly, after all you have written here, do you really expect an answer from me?

What, I've captured your thoughts so well, that you have nothing to add to them?

 

[Sephi]

EDIT: Also, what about the good parts of 5.0? I believe a spellcasting AI (while I disliked the method of implementation, the results were quite nice.... And admittedly, I haven't looked at it since 5.0, so the method could have changed) is a massive improvement.

I made a poll and about 80% voted that the AI is better. In the german FFH forum the feedback was also positiv (although many seem to play Orbis there, so not that much feedback). I guess it will be difficult to find 3 people who prefer unmodded patch g over patch j.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I made a poll and about 80% voted that the AI is better.

Just the honeymoon effect.

Note that the poll thread is full of complaints even despite the honeymoon effect:

Conquering their capital was the start for my rampage. But: where they have the pyre zombies i've seen few turns before start the war? Where was Rosier? why i've found only some few archers and mages in Galveholm?
This is one of the main reasons of this post. My description of the game is only the frame to help your judgement.
I mean: Sheaim has the units and the time to massively defend their capital with 2 shrines and an Academy. Why i never seen those units? mainly Rosier.

Then, much later in the game, the Amurites: they have a massive stack of well promoted Firebows, Swords and Mages. I attacked with a very powerful stack, but half in size than theirs. Have i seen a single fireball throwed at me? some magic? some counterattack? nothing. They gathered in a city waiting for the end.

Then, some 10 turns after this, the Luchuirp: same stack, a city defended by archers, swords, mages and no less than 10 assassins. Barnaxus and Bambur with Ortus' axe.
Do they throw some assassin to kill my Mages? anything? no. Just moved the heroes and a couple units to next city, not even trying to react. They just waited for the end.

This is the reason of this post. This absurd way to fight of the AI.

I said I'd give a list later, but I'll mention one example here just so that I don't leave that last statement unsupported. An Archer defending a hill city is a tough foe, but there is some number of Axemen that can kill such an Archer. I'm fairly confident that number is much less than 30. So when I see 60 enemy Axemen approaching one of my hill cities, defended by two Archers, I expect the city to fall in short order. When the Axemen halt their attack, and mill around waiting for who knows what, rather than lose a few to achieve victory, then I conclude: AI broken.

P.S. I´ve seen archers (i.e., stacks of dwarfen slingers) committing mass suicides against my cities, too.

I think the new AI is better economically but worse with its units.

I think the AI is making poor choices in deciding what to build. Specifically, archers. 50 strong stacks of archers (by the khazad no less) were imploding into my cities. The AI needs to build much less recon and archery line units, and to NEVER send them on the attack.

I love that the AI can and does use magic. that is awesome. But it does not defend even within it's own borders well.

I also have seen this issue in my three patch (i) games. AIs have big (~6 unit) city garrisons plus a mobile stack of 60 or even 100 champion level units vs. my 2-longbow border towns and my mobile force of maybe 30. The AI could easily have done a ton of damage or probably wiped me entirely off the map.

Even after I declared war (with AI still having a power graph advantage) it still used the stacks very timidly, most of the time not venturing out of its own territory. I ended up winning the war by grinding them down slowly with e.g., Shadows, while the AI armies milled about. Only once was it even brave enough to even counterattack a captured city, winning easily but too little to late.

By the way, In the poll I voted "A little improvement," since i was definitely impressed with the AI handling its economy well enough to build big stacks of champions.

Of course, it's possible to make the AI handle its economy well with the default AI by just changing some flavours. But people were impressed with the trivial part, while not realizing that the main part of all that AI effort was spent screwing the AI up...

1.) The AI doesn't attack nearly enough and doesn't use it's unit advantage.
2.) The AI doesn't pick off enough units that are easy xp.
3.) The AI doesn't use it's promotions very well, definitely need to specialize these more.
4.) The AI doesn't suicide it's summons very well.
5.) The AI doesn't build enough catapults (this can probably be used to help fix #1)
6.) The AI doesn't pillage.
7.) Naval AI, I'm sure you know this is broken and makes you only play 1 map type ... Pangaea.

the AI barley declares war. even when the have insanly high numbers (i have agressive AI on)
the AI uses spells
the AI makes huge numbers. then just keeps them in borders. not attacking barbs
when in war the AI barley uses its units. there no longer a big stack of doom but a big stack of wander around

IMO: keep the part of the code that allows units to use magic. scrap the rest

When I was happy to see AIs finally use some magic and make (a little) better economic and religious choices, I would have been happier with these changes only.

The stacks size inflation and continuous useless random AI troops movements taking a lot of time make the game quasi unplayable with my favorite settings (huge maps, 15+ AIs, epic or marathon speed).

Also, like said in the other thread, I've seen far too much AIs civs being destroyed early by barbarians, and very few early world wonders being made by the AIs, so I can't say that the early game civilization AI is really improved.

You never responded to them anyway, despite the people being very polite in that thread. At least I've had somewhat a reaction.

 

[Sephi]

Just the honeymoon effect.

Note that the poll thread is full of complaints even despite the honeymoon effect. You never responded to them anyway.

You simply ignore everything that doesn't fit your opinion. You can read more about it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Don't you realize how hopeless your arguments are? One time you say I used a great amount of time to defend the AI, then you say i never answered to complaints

If you think you knew better than Kael what should to be merged and what not, why don't you start your own mod? Or fix whatever you consider an obvious AI flaw. Do you want more attention or what is your problem?

 

[Sephi]

You never responded to them anyway, despite the people being very polite in that thread. At least I've had somewhat a reaction.

I am a FFH player just like you. Why should I reply? Do you answer to every post in the FFH bug thread?

 

[Lone Wolf]

I am a FFH player just like you. Why should I reply? Do you answer to every post in the FFH bug thread?

Your AI was merged. Unless Kael made a mistake when merging, you're responsible for the new AI as much as he.

If Kael took some of my AI changes, I would have the duty to respond.

Don't you realize how hopeless your arguments are? One time you say I used a great amount of time to defend the AI, then you say i never answered to complaints

Your silence in that thread and your lengthy defense in the other thread were equally bad.

If you think you knew better than Kael what should to be merged and what not, why don't you start your own mod? Or fix whatever you consider an obvious AI flaw.

Well, I did do my own improvements that fixed Kilmorphworld and AI early economy crashes shortly before Turin's and Skyre's modmods.

You simply ignore everything that doesn't fit your opinion. You can read more about it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

It's you who ignore everything that doesn't fit your option:

~Sephi's Guide to Deal with Complainers~

1. Tell them that they are wrong, because the AI has to think differently then a human, and, therefore, their reasoning means nothing.
2. Tell them that they are wrong because the AI, in fact, uses the mechanics in question quite well - better then BTS AI. Link to a complaint thread at BetterAI forum for extra kicks.
3. Tell them that they are wrong because the AI uses the mechanics badly, so it makes sense not to develop the AI to use the mechanics well.
4. Tell them that they are wrong because the new AI casts spells well, everything else doesn't matter.
5. Tell them that they are wrong because Sephi isn't responsible for the AI at all. Must've been a little bird who actually wrote the AI, not Sephi.
6. Profit!

I'm having so much fun .

 

[Sephi]

Your AI was merged. Unless Kael made a mistake when merging, you're responsible for the new AI as much as he.

You don't seem to have much of an idea of merging works. If you merge something, it is your business. period. It is very easy to break something when merging. I don't expect the BUG mod team to read this forum just because I merged their mod.

Your silence in that thread and your lengthy defense in the other thread were equally bad.

this just shows that you have no argument.

I'm having so much fun .

then you have a weird definition of fun. I guess the village idiot also has lots of fun in his own weird world.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that was a funny showdown, but I still think posts from #10 onwards should be deleted by a moderator for spam and discussion should begin again from DioAurion's posted savegame. that would be productive

 

[Fafnir13]

Your AI was merged. Unless Kael made a mistake when merging, you're responsible for the new AI as much as he.

Incomplete merge without the nigh continuous improvements and updates Sephi has been adding. I stopped playing FFH2 because patch J AI was more annoying then fun. I started playing FFH2 again because I tried out Wild Mana. Give the Mod a serious try or go away.

Edit: to keep this post productive, I had a game where I allied with the Khazad and got to watch how the handled city conquest. I never saw them leave a city completely undefended, but they did leave it a tad lightly defended a couple times. Leaving behind 5-6 units in the red is just asking for trouble, especially when you aren't moving to oppose the enemy stack.

 

[DioAurion]

that was a funny showdown, but I still think posts from #10 onwards should be deleted by a moderator for spam and discussion should begin again from DioAurion's posted savegame. that would be productive

Don't get my post 19 deleted cause it's in the middle of that mess.

And yea interesting that it's the Khazad that defend their cities well. Just look at my save game and you can say it's the khazad who are doing conquest right while the rest of the world is wallowing in stalemates. Idk if that's random chance or not, or has to do with their strong economy supporting their high production rates. Either way, they still need time to heal their catapults (even more so than most civs need to).

 

[Fafnir13]

Can the Khazad get repair wielding adepts or just the Luchiurp? That would cut down on any needed repair time.

 

[Valkrionn]

Both, just requires the Dwarven racial.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I think I misunderstood this post earlier. The AI seems to leave substantially stronger defenses in the cities that they build up come mid-game. I actually have to plan out a warband ahead of time to take such cities, greatly slowing my conquest progress even with the Mercurians.

I think the war AI is quite incredible and just needs a small boost to how they handle freshly conquered/ freshly lost cities to complete a near full AI improvement package.

One thought that comes directly to mind is that I noticed the conquest AI civs tend to be dragging around these near death catapults late in their campaigns that never have time to heal. Perhaps if the SoD could be taught to stay within a conquered city until the initial revolt ends, you could kill 2 birds with one stone. The stack would full heal. The catapults would be repaired. Quick city grabs by human players would be prevented. And the AI would have time to rush new defenders to the city.

post saved just in case

 

[Medicine_Man_55]

Try not to feed the troll, Sephi.