Spanish general election 2019

[Josu]

I'm afraid we only have one spanish and two catalan regulars here on this forum to comment. Or a catalan and a basque? Too bad because this election has some importance overall for Europe.

Despite not having Spanish feeling I am administratively Spanish, I am called to the elections as well. While this administrative issue remains (Unfortunately I think it is going for long) I try to be aware of what happens in Spain

That makes three spanish in any case...

And there is not much to comment. The debates looked a box fight with not any clear winner. (or so people say since i haven't seen any)

In this case, administratively talking, this is true, but a Basque is not necessarily Spanish, can be French

What I saw:
Pedro Sanchez (PSOE): He knows he is winning, and is awaiting PP's and Ciudadanos' debacle, in both debates tryed not to make much noise. But he was not able, too much quarrels against PP and Ciudadanos.
Pablo Casado (PP): In both debates no proposals, lies, and box fight. Did not surprise me, he is a jerk that belives himself brilliant.
Albert Rivera (Ciudadanos): Argued properlly his ideas(which I don't share at all) the first debate until the last speech, which IMHO was shameful. In the second one he was too nervous. Did not respect the turns to speak and did not defend his program. He used too much photos, grapichs and effects, he seemed Doraemon
Pablo Iglesias (Podemos): Too much time reading the spanish constitution to defend Podemos' program in the first debate, which I consider a good idea, but bored the socks off. He refused the fight. Almost unnoticed.

I read today that Vox is proposing to abolish a law against domestic violence in Andalusia, anyone know more?

They want to abolish some polemic points of the current law, as placing the burden of proof on the man always, which basically means there is not presumption of innocence for men if they are accused by a woman.

It may sound reasonable to abolish such thing, but practice has shown that it is the only way it works in order to protect women. Some VOX proposals sound reasonable, even if they are not, others are mostly crazy. Even Trumpesque.

This is a state level law (something like federal law), so whatever they propose in Andalusia, won't have effect.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Facebook shennanigans https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...far-right-groups-days-before-spanish-election

 

[Thorgalaeg]

A couple of days ago WhatsApp closed Podemos's account too.

Zuckerber is the nemesis of populism.

 

[Josu]

A couple of days ago WhatsApp closed Podemos's account too.

Zuckerber is the nemesis of populism.

Today some PSOE'S and PP's accounts have been closed.
The Podemos' one has been reactivated.
I don't think that this is a populism issue.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

They want to abolish some polemic points of the current law, as placing the burden of proof on the man always, which basically means there is not presumption of innocence for men if they are accused by a woman.

It may sound reasonable to abolish such thing, but practice has shown that it is the only way it works in order to protect women. Some VOX proposals sound reasonable, even if they are not, others are mostly crazy. Even Trumpesque.

Are you saying the burden of proof isn't on the accuser? If it isn't, how does one go about proving a negative?

I never visited the state of Texas last year. However, since I took a week off work someone could say I did. How could I prove I never drove there? Similarly, if a man is accused of DV in Spain but did not in fact commit any violence whatsoever, how does he protect himself?

Claiming no presumption of innocence is "reasonable" defies logic, especially when it's being done selectively without basis.

 

[Josu]

Are you saying the burden of proof isn't on the accuser? If it isn't, how does one go about proving a negative?

I never visited the state of Texas last year. However, since I took a week off work someone could say I did. How could I prove I never drove there? Similarly, if a man is accused of DV in Spain but did not in fact commit any violence whatsoever, how does he protect himself?

Claiming no presumption of innocence is "reasonable" defies logic, especially when it's being done selectively without basis.

I am not lawyer and admit that I am not very sure about what I am going to say.
In a trial the burden if proof is in the accuser, however if you are accused of gender violence you are going to be some hours in the police station's dungeons. This is to prevent assaults on the accusser.

Yet, remember that I am not an expert in this topic.

Vox also remarks the false accousations amount, which as the prosecutor's Office is currently less than 1% but they claim it is much bigger

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Pretty much. The point is not ask the woman to prove her accusations as it is done with any other crimes. It is up to the judge (which are a specialized kind of judge) to consider if it is reasonable, to take preventive measures and to investigste the case, but a priori the accusation is taken as true. VOX says false accusations are a big issue this way but statistics say otherwise.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Vox also remarks the false accousations amount, which as the prosecutor's Office is currently less than 1% but they claim it is much bigger

You have to be careful with terminology. For example US media frequently cites "gun deaths" as ~40k per year when talking about "gun violence", but this statistic includes suicides.

When it comes to false allegations, regardless of type of crime you usually have some breakdown like this:

• Percentage of convictions of crime
• Percentage of convictions of false allegation (probable source of that 1%)
• Large volume of cases with insufficient evidence to convict the accused, but also no way to prove false allegation

From what I can see, claiming only 1% of accusations are false is irresponsible, similar to claiming that literally everyone who isn't convicted (which in the case of DV is also a small percentage) didn't commit the crime...aka if we accept that "less than 1% of accusations are false" then using that same logic one must also conclude that far less than 10% of accusations are true.

That obviously doesn't square with reality, less than 10% of cases is not 100% of cases.

Pretty much. The point is not ask the woman to prove her accusations as it is done with any other crimes. It is up to the judge (which are a specialized kind of judge) to consider if it is reasonable, to take preventive measures and to investigste the case, but a priori the accusation is taken as true.

There is a big difference between making sure two people are separated so they don't harm each other and presuming guilt. The latter is a joke, regardless of crime in question. Is it accurate to say that if a man accuses a woman of DV that the treatment is different?

 

[Thorgalaeg]

There is a big difference between making sure two people are separated so they don't harm each other and presuming guilt. The latter is a joke, regardless of crime in question. Is it accurate to say that if a man accuses a woman of DV that the treatment is different?

Yes, it is different. There is not equality in the treatment as there is not equality in the situation either. For obvious reasons violence between men and women is extremely asymmetrical, so in this case equality goes against equity. It is a bit like treating minors and adults differently or taxing more the rich than the poor with progressive taxes.

Anyway while Spain is somewhat the spearhead in this topic, it is not a Spanish thing only. Most European countries have signed the Convention of Istanbul which contemplates such asymmetrical measures. In fact the Convention does not talk about violence between men and women but about violence against women specifically.

 

[Josu]

• Percentage of convictions of crime
• Percentage of convictions of false allegation (probable source of that 1%)
• Large volume of cases with insufficient evidence to convict the accused, but also no way to prove false allegation

The prosecutor's office, for this 1% takes in account:
- Percentaje of cases in which the accused was considered guilty, but later was proved that he was not.
- Percentaje of cases in which it was proven it was a false allegation.


Eventhough if we consider al the things you mention, the data provided by VOX is "inaccurate".
They are using false data in order to argue the derogation of laws.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yes, it is different. There is not equality in the treatment as there is not equality in the situation either. For obvious reasons violence between men and women is extremely asymmetrical, so in this case equality goes against equity. It is a bit like treating minors and adults differently or taxing more the rich than the poor with progressive taxes.

Women are a substantial proportion of DV. Men do more, but not by such a margin that this should be ignored. A woman with a weapon (guns or even just a knife) can easily kill or seriously injure a man. To put a number to it, women are responsible for ~20-30% of DV homicides.

BS on "equity", what's so difficult about treating a women committing DV similarly to a man? How does tossing a woman committing DV in jail just like men compromise other cases?

Anyway while Spain is somewhat the spearhead in this topic, it is not a Spanish thing only. Most European countries have signed the Convention of Istanbul which contemplates such asymmetrical measures. In fact the Convention does not talk about violence between men and women but about violence against women specifically.

Then it is hot garbage, and so are the legal systems that embrace it.

The prosecutor's office, for this 1% takes in account:
- Percentaje of cases in which the accused was considered guilty, but later was proved that he was not.
- Percentaje of cases in which it was proven it was a false allegation.

In other words, claiming that only 1% of allegations are false is lying to every bit the extent that claiming less than 10% of allegations are true is lying.

False allegations are almost certainly higher than 1%, and nobody knows by how much.

Eventhough if we consider al the things you mention, the data provided by VOX is "inaccurate".
They are using false data in order to argue the derogation of laws.

I'm not particularly interested in defending VOX, I first heard of them in this thread and am ignorant to the party specifics of Spain. That said, the 1% statistic referenced here is "false data", so I'm not seeing a lot of credibility in pointing fingers...especially from a legal system engaging in open, unambiguous misandry at a systemic level.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Women are a substantial proportion of DV. Men do more, but not by such a margin that this should be ignored. A woman with a weapon (guns or even just a knife) can easily kill or seriously injure a man. To put a number to it, women are responsible for ~20-30% of DV homicides.

Close enough. Data shows about a 6-1 relation in women-men homicides. But you only focus on homicides and violence is not only homicides. 99% of the time it is men beating women.

 

[Josu]

Close enough. Data shows about a 6-1 relation in women-men homicides. But you only focus on homicides and violence is not only homicides. 99% of the time it is men beating women.

Furthermore, considering only homicides, in Spain 19 women killed by their partner in 2019. No men killed by their partner.

 

[Josu]

In other words, claiming that only 1% of allegations are false is lying to every bit the extent that claiming less than 10% of allegations are true is lying.

False allegations are almost certainly higher than 1%, and nobody knows by how much.

Absolutelly disagree.
V0X claims that the cases in which the accousations could were proven false are 87%. Based on this they want to abolise whole low. Not change it. Abolise.
The report of prosecutor's Office, based on the law and on reports from all around Spain said that cases un which accousations where false and on which someone was enjailed but later proven not guilty are 0,1%


So, if you consider same extent, prosecutor's report and what vox is claiming based on a report of the prestigious university of nowhere, please don't bore to continue with this debate, because I won't answer regarding this topic.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Close enough. Data shows about a 6-1 relation in women-men homicides. But you only focus on homicides and violence is not only homicides. 99% of the time it is men beating women.

That statement isn't consistent with reality either: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ipvav9311.pdf

We're still over 17% on that, with similar injury rates for male and female victims when it comes to violence.

Furthermore, considering only homicides, in Spain 19 women killed by their partner in 2019. No men killed by their partner.

It's true that I don't have hard data for Spain, and it might be different there.

What neither of you have presented is any sound basis for one gender being treated differently...and I don't see how this basis was ever established in countries with this kind of enforcement. Including my own.

It's no secret the perpetrator is more likely to be male. What's controversial is asserting that a woman who pulls a knife, baseball bat, or other object or even fists (some men are not in good physical condition to overcome initiator of violence) to commit DV somehow shouldn't be held to the same standard as a man doing so...and also that due process should be ignored in either case.

V0X claims that the cases in which the accousations could were proven false are 87%. Based on this they want to abolise whole low. Not change it. Abolise.

VOX can suck one for all I care. I already said I don't care about them. It looks like they're doing the same mistake as claiming only 1% are false, but in reverse (claiming that all non-convictions are false). It's not respectable practice regardless of which direction one goes with it.

Basically, claiming 1% or less are false is a lie, and what VOX is saying is a lie. They are both gross abuses of statistical non-reasoning.

It's still a bad law even if you completely ignore VOX, which one probably should since if they're going to also resort to nonsense.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Most European countries have signed the Convention of Istanbul which contemplates such asymmetrical measures. In fact the Convention does not talk about violence between men and women but about violence against women specifically.

Well according to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conve..._violence_against_women_and_domestic_violence

the UK is a Party, but not a Signatory, to the convention.

Not sure I approve.

The UK took care to ensure that its prohibition on upskirting is symmetrical.

 

[innonimatu]

I most certainly do not approve of presuming guilt under any circumstances. Any circumstances whatsoever. This specific law has been a gift to the far-right in terms of election leverage. And it it takes the far-right to scare some sense into the fools who did it, so be it.

Craig Murray was making this point yesterday about the accusations against Assange: no warrant was ever issued, no proof offered, but nevertheless he became a wanted man and was smeared with a "rape" accusation. We now know that there was always an intention to capture him by the US, and we knew even back then that Sweden illegally delivered people to the US.
Murray's point, which is absolutely, totally accurate, is that any laws that provide for presumption of guilt are a powerful tool against civil liberties placed in the hands of states. They will be abused.

I fear that the left in Spain has been falling into the same mistaken foolishness as it did in other counties: choosing to make a point of changes over divisive "social issues", some very badly thought out and just following demands from small groups of activists, because they don't have the courage to tackle more relevant problems. I wonder how is the situation on wages and cost of living in major cities in Spain, as I'm guessing that there same as here the speculation on housing picked up again.

 

[Traitorfish]

As expected, you failed to mention that Venezuela practically founded Podemos paying them 7 millions of euros back in 2007 and has been paying them regularly since. Iran is also involved.

Just Venezuela and Iran? You don't think we could throw in some Moon-Nazis, really complete the picture?

 

[Kyriakos]

Would Iran even have any reason to bother with spanish public opinion?
At least Venezuela is spanish-speaking.

 

[innonimatu]

Would Iran even have any reason to bother with spanish public opinion?
At least Venezuela is spanish-speaking.

Why, it's obvious, the MEK was financing Vox, so Iran's government would finance Podemos

Of course the MEK never had any finance of its own, but I'm sure they can forward the funds from some endowment for democracy... perhaps Vox promised to deliver north korean diplomans on a platter instead of forcing a certain government's intelligence services to get them by attacking embassies.