Strategy discussion

[AnotherPacifist]

Initial techs

So somebody said he was lost when he looked at all the new techs. It took me a while, but I think there is an optimal tech path depending on your situation.

a. Optimizing science and economy
Way of the Celestial Masters (cheap tech that allows the equally cheap advisor mansion=monastery which gives more science and a free specialist--it's amazing how the AI neglects this often)
State monopoly (need blacksmiths)
military advisor (to protect yourself and prereq for poetry)
reformed poetry (try to build Tianlu library)
Jianan literature (farms have hammers)
code of laws (then switch to meritocracy and agrarian colony together)
Ancient dictionary (for catapults, not for Zheng's Academy which is too expensive to build unless you start with blacksmiths and can generate a great engineer in time)
household tax system (bulb with merchant) (+1 trade routes)
Regular Script (allows you to sell maps like mad for about 700-1000 gold, depending on your location)

Trade for shipbuilding, bridge building and drainage system after the Canal is built, then go for calendar (for oligarchy)

b. Optimizing military
Swordsmanship
military advisor (for the national wonder)
state monopoly
high-saddle bridge (if you don't already have it)
ancient dictionary (catapults)
anesthesia (for colosseums which give exp points)
professional army
nine bestowments (wuwei swordsmen)
blades (more powerful axes)
advanced riding
(the rest doesn't really matter)

c. Jungle/plantation rich civs
Way of peace (if you don't start with it)
anesthesia (chop jungles!) (why Liu Chong starts with it I don't know)
bridge building and drainage system
calendar

d. culture--pretty much the same as a. except emphasize
Way of the Celestial Masters (early monasteries=early culture)
Regular Script (can convert hammers to culture)
Noble Music (allows theaters and Music Bureau=Sistine Chapel)
Blades (allows culture slider) Most important to turn the slider at 10-20% early on
State Education
Laws of Wei--not that you want vassals but it's prereq for:
Wei and Jin's Grace (allows Spagirism Workshops which give 50% culture)
I usually trade for Secretariat because it's usually late that I get to build big cathedrals (i.e. Regional governments)
Then aim for folks of Wu which gives a free great artist

 

[AnotherPacifist]

This mod is rather innovative and against the civ4 norm of spamming cottages, in that farms, watermills and windmills have much more value than cottages, workshops or mines. In fact, early on I build nothing except farms unless I can't, then I do cottages, and after wooden ox, I convert as many farms as possible to watermills. The reason is because farms have hammers after Jianan literature (agrarian colony civic) and later on, ranking classification returns the lost food that your watermills took away, i.e. watermills with ranking classification is equal to a farm with 1 more hammer and 2 more gold. Nothing beats that, even with fully grown towns.

The fact that farms and watermills need fresh water means that traditionally strong civs have lots of rivers while weak civs only have flat land (Liu Bei and Yuan Shu are clearly disadvantaged this way, because they either have no access to lots of river tiles or their culture doesn't envelop them).

Large cities = more specialists = more production and science

 

[stmartin]

AP, I have a request, in our thread back in Modpack section, someone asked for a brief tutorial that tells him what to do. Since you played this game thousands of times more than me myself, I think you'd be the perfect person to write that. It will be included in the next patch if it rocks.

Here's the link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7802995&postcount=289

What say you?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

You mean something like what I wrote for RFC: http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Rhye's_and_Fall_of_Civilization_generic_strategy

Yeah, I can do that. It's basically hit or miss initially but eventually you figure it out (for example, it took me a while to learn NOT to use slavery at all because food builds units).

 

[stmartin]

Wow! I didn't know that!

But wait, we don't seem to need a that long one. Players need tutorials partly because my introduction at the first post is too long.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

OK, I'll do a short one on Liu Zhang (a major player who has the best turtling position while being at war with a relatively weak civ Zhang Lu). I think Yuan Shao and Cao Cao's situation is tough to do in one page since you have to do so many things at once.

 

[Shiggs713]

This mod is rather innovative and against the civ4 norm of spamming cottages, in that farms, watermills and windmills have much more value than cottages, workshops or mines. In fact, early on I build nothing except farms unless I can't, then I do cottages, and after wooden ox, I convert as many farms as possible to watermills. The reason is because farms have hammers after Jianan literature (agrarian colony civic) and later on, ranking classification returns the lost food that your watermills took away, i.e. watermills with ranking classification is equal to a farm with 1 more hammer and 2 more gold. Nothing beats that, even with fully grown towns.

The fact that farms and watermills need fresh water means that traditionally strong civs have lots of rivers while weak civs only have flat land (Liu Bei and Yuan Shu are clearly disadvantaged this way, because they either have no access to lots of river tiles or their culture doesn't envelop them).

Large cities = more specialists = more production and science

I totally agree. Instead of spamming cottages, I spam farms, windmills, lumbermills, and especially watermills. I generally always switch to agrarian colony civic and ranking classification. This is because there are sooo many "fresh water lakes" i.e. the wide rivers that separates certain areas. I make any river tile that I can a watermill, and most the other tiles end up as farms, mines, and windmills. Add in a levee with all these rivers bonuses, and its clear that anyone with rivers around their lands, has a HUGE advantage over other civs. Its not even close... honestly if you don't have rivers in your land relatively soon, its basically impossible to do conquest victory (unless your playing on perhaps prince or easier).

 

[Shiggs713]

I'll write a short description on what I think is the best early strategy while using my favorite character: Lu Bu

Also just for clarification, this is for the 68x64 196 AD scenario for 2.01 & patch A. Also I've tested this strategy on Diety difficulty/Epic speed and it works.
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Lu Bu starts out in a tough position. He is at war with Cao Cao and is heavily outnumbered. He is unpopular and starts with the worst of civics and beliefs. His capitol is roughly garbage, hardly worthy of being called a city, but the other one (I forget the name right now) is decent.

Also with the increased maintenance for cities, and the new maintenance for legions, its next to impossible to keep research levels high, early in the game. In fact on diety level, I was at 0% for about 10-15 turns, while I had to heavily micromanage my cities to keep from going completely bankrupt and all units on strike.

First things first you'll need to deal with Cao Cao by any means necessary. This will mean drafting an Anti-Cav Battalion in your capitol and moving all units in your capitol up to the other city. Stay on the roads and when you see Cao Cao's main army approaching, move to the hills/wheat just west of your 2nd city and defend it with at least 3 units. This is to keep Cao Cao in the open grasslands where he'll be easier to kill next turn.

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Also you'll want to build an archer in your capitol and a warrior in your 2nd city. And research Fishing. It'll be the only tech you'll be able to research before your broke and begging for mercy with this strategy (on diety). But you will rise from the ashes like a phoenix and eventually outshine all your rivals.

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Hit Cao Cao's main army with at least 2-3 xbows, until your best units (attached to legions) can kill Cao's strongest units with at least 90% odds. By the time most of his army is dead, you will have earned a great general. Attach said GG to the warrior you produced in the 2nd city, and continue to build Anti-Cav Battalion and/or archers in both cities.

I like to make the warrior(aka anti-cav battalion after free upgrade) my healer specialist, so I give him medic I, II, & III and let the group heal for a turn.

By now Cao Cao will have another army coming for you, this one smaller than the first. Protect the wheat/hills again and kill his army again. By now you've got some very experienced and dangerous units.

Once the whole group is healed, move the weaker of the two legions (both units) up to Cao Cao's northern most city. Take the other legion (all units) and any other troops you have to the closest Cao Cao city (directly west of your 2nd city).

Remember to never attack across rivers and that speed is everything! You must overwhelm Cao Cao before he has time to re-group.

Once you have those two cities (which you should be able to do without losing any troops, or perhaps 1) you should heal in the one closest to Cao Cao's borders. Keep sending archers to newly conquered cities and build markets or culture producing buildings.

Again once their healed, split your army once again (to take the next 2 closest cities). Go for the western one with the weaker stack and the southern city with the stronger stack. After that, go directly to the choke point city that is south/west of where your units already are.

You should be able to literally grab 5 cities from him without much of a fight, after you kill his two main attack armies. Taking his capitol and his other city we're a little harder, and by this time (playing on diety) you have ran out of money and have to micromanage like crazy to keep from having units go on strike.

It'll be all worth it though.

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Keep organized in the choke point city, and let the main attack stack heal. Once healed, move straight south to Cao Cao's capitol and take it asap. Rinse and repeat for his other city. He might even have another city to the west if he attacked Bai Bo (sp?).

By now your bankrupt, and science spending is 0% and your wondering if this was all worth it. Well it is. With any luck you will have captured Cao Cao's legions (leaving you with 5, and 3 of them are already level 3 or higher), taken all his territory and gained emperor support. Not to mention captured the Unification holy city and killed your fiercest rival.

Now is the time to switch to Unification, but first you must switch out of indifference. I like to switch to Noble School, Legalism, and Normal at this time. Not to mention it'll give you 3 turns to escape the inevitable crashing of your economy due to capturing tons of cities and legions. When thats over, now switch to Unification.

After your horrible 4 turns of anarchy (maybe 3 if on easier difficulty) your economy will no longer be crashing, and you'll actually be able to maintain 20% science (on diety). Keep building markets and other stuff to improve your economy, and now your on the path to glory.

I can post some more screen shots or answer any Q's if you have any. Just ask.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Wow, aggression really works.

The other civs for which early aggression works is Ma Teng, Zhang Yang (attacking Ye, Han Dan and Dun Qiu early on pays off big later) and Yuan Shao (forget about Gongsun Zan and head straight for Cao Cao's lands). Kong Rong must be eliminated early or they start pumping out archers.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Liu Zhang: an intro to HoTK

Congratulations! You have decided to download and play one of the most innovative and historical mods for Civ 4. Now it's time to start conquering China and declare yourself emperor!

Uh, not so fast. May I suggest starting with Liu Zhang, a much maligned figure in the novel on which this mod is based, Romance of the Three Kingdoms. In history he kept Yizhou (which forms the base of the Kingdom of Shu) peaceful and prosperous until he was unceremoniously ousted by the would-be emperor Liu Bei. You have some appropriate traits: spiritual (which is nice because it'll allow you to experiment with the new civics) and protective, and you're only at war with that religious fanatic, Zhang Lu who you'll crush in no time. Your location is secluded which allows a lot of exploring without immediate danger. But all this in good time. As with all civs, read a little history about each character first before playing--it'll save you a lot of grief.

All civs have a trait which gives them certain advantages. LZ's guerrilla tactics means that he can derive 1 food and 2 hammers from mountains, which will allow you to grow big cities in the mountainous Yizhou.

You start off with knowing most of the major players of the game, and it's a good thing to open borders with most of them. Built a scout from one of your cities bordering Liu Biao (a distant relative) and get your foreign trade routes.

The tech tree is very different from the old one, but some functions are the same. I would suggest starting with starting with Animal Husbandry (since your capital has some free pigs) or Way of the Celestial Masters which gives you Advisor Mansions, which give different benefits depending on your Belief, plus more science. Thereafter, it's up to you either to go the war path (Military Advisor, ancient dictionary) or wondermonger (state monopoly for workshops and production). Calendar is a very important tech because it'll allow plantations, and your capital, being a major city, needs Silk for its benefit to come online. Calendar also allows Oligarchy which allows happiness without troops (Despotism) and research (just like Representation in Civ 4).

Speaking of civics, the others you're running currently are Corvee (which allows military units to be built by food, so your city essentially stops growing), Hereditary and Confucianism (workers build quicker and faster cottage growth). You don't have any workers so start building them! In the meantime, you might want to switch to Mohism initially to get an extra 10% of science until those workers come online.

Belief is your political outlook on the future of China. You're currently running Revival (i.e. of the Han Dynasty) which is somewhat appropriate historically. However, you'll note that some of your cities have Division, which suits your location much more. So it's up to you whether you want to convert all your cities to one or the other. Indifference is actually not such a great option because it'll deprive you of many useful buildings. You're now in Normal which allows Advocates (i.e. those who spread belief) to be built without Advisor Mansions. Later on, you may want to switch to Strong, which has lower cost but less benefit for getting great people and if you do get some shrines (Zhang Lu has one right north of you), you can always switch back and spread Religion around for money.

One big difference between this mod and regular Civ4 is that farms, watermills and windmills have a lot more strategic value than cottages or mines, when you adopt certain civics. (This is somewhat appropriate since China is known for its big agricultural basis). So don't go spamming cottages all over, because you'll have to build some farms to grow.

You have 1 hero to start with named Zhang Ren who later almost killed Liu Bei in history. Click on him and you'll find the option to form a legion. Initially you can choose just one unit to attach him to, which will give that unit certain benefits. Later on, you can detach the hero and reattach it to a different unit if you want. You can capture or buy heroes, and as their experiences grow, more upgrade options will come up, but their maintenance costs also go up, so use them wisely. Great generals have been replaced by Champions, which will give the usual experience points to your units if you attach them to one, and these units can also join legions for extra skills. They upgrade for free.

If you were wondering why Zhang Lu hates your guts so much, read about it in Wikipedia or Sevopedia which will help you learn all the new wonders and tech trees. This is not a substitute for reading the novel, but it's almost as good. If schoolwork was only so easy in real life...

 

[stmartin]

I saw this AP, thanks!

Now it's time to link it to the publishing post

 

[Kalimakhus]

@AP

Excellent write-up . One thing, not every Advisor Mansion gives a free specialist. It is Unification Advisor Mansion that does so. LZ's belief is Revival.

@stmartin

It is quite difficult to extract building info from XML files because you keep tags for religions and their building as they are in BTS. I needed to figure out that Christianity stands for Unification, Judaism for Revival, Islam for Division, etc. through the gamefont.tga file. I know that this should saved you a lot of time (and trouble) but it is basically a simple text find and replace operation through files (Notepad++ can do it). Sometime, somebody might like to prepare a documentation of the mod by extracting info from XML files.

 

[stmartin]

@Kalimakhus

It's likely the XML confusion be solved in the next few patches. Lots of work for our XML guy.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Military advisor (relatively cheap early tech)
reformed poetry, build TianLu library and get for free:
Jianan literature (farming has hammers)--expensive but worth it

Using Reformed Poetry and Jian'an Lit, a lot of other techs can be traded from friendly civs, e.g. state monopoly, drainage cellar (after the Li Cao Canal is built), shipbuilding, ancient dictionary, bridge building, code of laws. The AI for some unknown reason prioritizes bridge building and drainage, which are the most useless techs for small cities.

It's also fun to have Royal Hunting Field and build other civs' unique units, and Chancellor Mansion for more great people.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Early on, never use a catapult for collateral damage if you can use a crossbowman. Reason is you need the bombardment, and unless you get ancient dictionary, you can't build those precious catapults. Corvee and a good size 5-6 city can build a crossbow in 1-2 turns.

 

[Shiggs713]

Honestly I never use catapults except in the very beginning if I start with some. Kinda like how I never use horse archers... not sure why anyone would want a horse archer over an elite rider. Also like the trebuchets vs the catapults. I always pick trebuchets (And yes I probably spelled trebuchets wrong but my spell checker doesn't know how to spell it either). Nearly the same with Xbow vs archers. Xbows are still nice defenders so I tend to ignore any other archer units, simply cause for the cost Xbows, they are one of the best units for killing large enemy stacks. But I still keep a few other archer types around for purely defensive. But really the best defense is a good offense, I find most "defensive oriented" units to be generally quite weaker, especially in the open field to their offensive counterparts so I don't waste too many hammers on them. Even spearmen I'll only have maybe 1 or 2 in a 60 unit stack. They just don't have much of a role unless your playing vs a behemoth AI that wants to kill you.

 

[Kalimakhus]

I find the two lines of Cats, and Trebs quite useful, so I always keep a number of both types in my SoD. I tend to have more Trebs however. When it comes to attacking cities Trebs are more useful. They lower defenses faster and when causing collateral damage they are either as good as Cats or better due to their city attack modifier. However, in open field trebs are almost useless. They lose the advantage of city attack modifier and their basic strength is lower than cats. So if I need to soften an enemy stack in the open field I use Cats. (note that what I mean by cats are the two more advanced types not the early one that you use only because there is no alternative).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

But what I meant was in early game, when nobody can build catapults because of lack of Ancient Dictionary, there is a big difference between getting a city after bombardment vs having all your units die because you couldn't bombard. When there's only 50% with walls, you can bombard it down to nothing in 2-3 moves. (That's all assuming you don't play Gongsun Zan of course)

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Having the emperor is a good thing, it allows you to bribe the AI to do stuff not in their best interests. Zhang Xiu and Liu Biao each had quite a large stack in their cities, and I wanted to eliminate both of them without causing massive damage to my stacks. So I bribed Liu Biao to declare war on Sun Ce. Zhang Xiu was left with about 1/3 of his troops in his cities, and I have enough espionage to eliminate most, if not all of his troops in 1-2 moves. Then Liu Biao will put me above domination limit.

Spoiler :

 

[Kalimakhus]

@AP

I was replying to Shiggs713. concerning the early game, I agree with you. If I am fortunate to have a few cats I only use them to get rid of city defenses. If my best unit can't kill defenders after that I use crossbows to soften the defenders. Usually the only units I build early are crossbows for that purpose and to station one of them in the city after taking it. They are cheap and effective.

On other note, I think horse archers are quite useful. They start with a higher withdrawal chance than Elite Riders so they serve well in attacking powerful stacks. They will weaken the best units in a stack if not kill it. If they survive they will damage siege units in the stack making it less dangerous.

I guess when playing on higher difficulties you get to appreciate the variety of units more as you won't be able to build just gigantic numbers of them, and you will meet some large AI stacks probably composed of more advanced units than yours.