Strategy discussion

[Kenjister]

Actually, Liu Chong is insanely good on the small map with cities too! Give Luo Jun a few Chen's Crossbowmen and he will eat up everything. Resilient and First Strikes really make for easy city combat.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Ma Teng is rather tricky. Can't really aim for going for the good Central Plain from the start, although you can certain rescue the emperor and bring him back to Chang An.
First target should be Han Sui (before he blocks your exit from Liangzhou) who's a good cavalry general too. 2nd target should be Zhang Lu (he has nothing but archers who are but mincemeat for a correctly promoted light cavalry with 7-9 strength). Then Li Jue must be weakened if not completely eliminated. Rescue the emperor while you pacify Lin Jing (Chang An) and be friends with Liu Zhang. I made the mistake of going for Cao Cao next which allowed Lu Bu to snatch Qiao from me. Then Liu Zhang and Liu Biao. I'm at the point of getting rid of Zhang Xiu which will basically allow me to concentrate all my forces on the east, either Liu Chong, Liu Yao or Lu Bu. Or I should be able to just build cities for a domination win since Yizhou, Jingzhou and the barren area north of Liangzhou should just be mine without any opposition.

Don't forget about Zhang Yang (I squeezed him in after Li Jue) but let him grow a little first, grab some warrior camps (by now he should have 5-6), let him rest, then eliminate him at Tun Liu (where there is a sheep and he'll have more camps to be captured). I sent 2 warrior camps to Wu Wei (my first capital) and it's now size 12 and growing with tons of production (built Chancellor Mansion and Stone Sentinel Maze there and now building 1 quadruply-promoted light cavalry in 1-2 turns).

Spoiler :

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Wang Lang's personality is like Mansa Musa in RFC--reasonable peaceful guy who is unfortunately exiled to the south, otherwise he would be a formidable tech broker. Find him at all costs (either by direct route or building the Imperial Court) and befriend him, he'll trade you a lot of techs including bridge building, drainage cellar and calendar when nobody will.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

He's like the Americans--no great generals or great people associated with him early, but grows like rabbits. First order of business is to conquer the inept Liu Zhang, then take Li Jue by surprise, then rescue the emperor. Han Sui stupidly declared war on me so I took a detour and got Laws of Wei to capitulate him. Then Cao Cao, Zhang Xiu, briefly Yuan Shu, Liu Bei, Meng Huo (never even got to build those war elephants) and Liu Biao were capitulated, and finally Zhang Yang capitulated and brought be above 46%.

Best building in the whole game: house of freedom--cheap and gives a free specialist. Strongest early unit besides Chen's crossbow: Ghost swordsman (doesn't even need iron to build!).
This has got to be one of the biggest stacks I've ever built on the small map.

Spoiler :

 

[AnotherPacifist]

...has to die before he could see himself crowned emperor. Most important step is to stay away from Liu Biao's culture initially, found where Cao Cao's Xu Chang is on the premade map (making sure to emcompass the iron, copper, sorghum and sugar, and churn out troops as soon as swordsmanship is in. The Cao Cao AI is so stupid that it gives you workers to raid several times and inevitably makes peace if you kill a couple archers outside cities (Royal Guards have no trouble doing it, even with generals on the other side).
Order of elimination: Liu Chong, Liu Biao, Cao Cao (several times of DOW including once with Lu Bu helping), Yang Feng (send emperor to your capital), Liu Bei, Lu Bu (who usually sends a stack towards Liu Bei), Li Jue. Liu Zhang had the good sense of spontaneously vassalizing, which benefited him by me choosing cities to vote back to him (he lost 2 cities and gained them back without war). Then it's all vassals: Kong Rong, Yuan Shao, Gongsun Zan, Zhang Yan (who died), Liu Yao, Zhang Yang, Wang Lang, and finally Sun Ce was killed. I was just about to get domination (DOW'd on Yan Baihu and Zhang Lu at 44.5%) when I got the diplo vote.

Yan Baihu had a very interesting general: just with a levy crossbow he could withstand tons of damage due to his general having warrior spirit, iron wall, defense 2 and bravery, plus 6-9 first strikes. So my odds were something like <1% even though strengths were equal!

Spoiler :

 

[Jake the Peg]

Best building in the whole game: house of freedom--cheap and gives a free specialist.

To take full advantage of the House of Freedom, Zhang Lu player should do his best to build the Terracotta Army. On the first turn, start building workers from all three cities. Once you build the first worker from your capital, start building the Terracotta Army there. Switch to Confucianism and start spamming mines and you should be able to get Terracotta Army just fine.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

With the prebuilt-city map (where most civs have a decent sized city and know shamanism), it's almost always possible (except for the smallest civs) to build the Terracotta Army. Unfortunately with no prebuilt cities, the only civs that can do it before the AI researches shamanism before you (assuming you're playing monarch or above) are Yuan Shao, Sun Ce (stone available for these 2), and Liu Zhang (lots of trees to chop). The stone near Cao Cao is occupied by the White Wave Rogues who are too strong for Cao's starting units to kill.

Like any other wonder, capturing it might be easier later on, and not all civs need it (Liu Biao and Kong Rong don't).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Same technique as Liu Chong--found Qiao, let it grow to size 4, build another 2 setters to get the iron just west and occupy Liu Chong's city (got razed by barbs), then get all of Cao's heroes. Qingzhou is a death trap because there's no food, it pays off big time to migrate even if it means you take 4 turns to found a city.
Elimination order: Cao (stole 2 workers early on), Yang Feng, Liu Biao (too bad I couldn't eliminate him before he got swift bowmen just as I closed in on his last city, but eventually he vassalized spontaneously), Liu Yao, Yuan Shu, Liu Bei, then backwards towards Lu Bu, Yuan Shao, Zhang Yan, Zhang Yang, Gongsun Zan. Meanwhile Gongsun Du vassalized spontaneously and Li Jue got killed by Zhang Lu. After Zhang Yang was done, Zhang Lu and Han Sui was done, and the timid Liu Zhang vassalized after just 1 city captured.

Spoiler :

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Key is to found near the iron which takes about 5 moves extra, that city became Luoyang for me while Sun Ce's Shu became Xu Chang (I stupidly built the Silk Road in Xu Chang and thus couldn't build Mo Ling).
Order of elimination: Liu Yao (opens up the whole Jingzhou), Yan Baihu (who was building in my home turf), then Sun Ce. Zhang Lu had the foresight to build a city in Jingzhou just limiting Liu Biao's growth, so I captured his 2 cities there. Then Liu Biao (took a long time due to swift bowmen), Zhang Xiu (who had the emperor), Yang Feng, Liu Chong, Liu Bei, Lu Bu, Cao Cao (took a LOOOONG time since he had plenty of heroes and garrison halberdiers, not to mention tiger riders), Kong Rong, Yuan Shao, Gongsun Du, Gongsun Zan, Heishan Bandits, and finally Zhang Yang. I just couldn't resist DOWing on Zhang Lu again since he was busy fighting Liu Zhang.
This is probably the most developed southern China in my games so far.
BTW, the only free "educative" buildings I got were schools at city size 4, no official schools, advisor mansions, observatories, nada. Of course I got the Yellow Crane Tower. Rather weak unique power IMHO.

Spoiler :

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Same city as Wang Lang, only this time Sun Ce needed to be killed first since he's really mad at me. Then Wang Lang, Liu Yao, took all of Zhang Lu's Jingzhou cities (there were 5 of them) in 2 wars, Liu Chong, Liu Bei. Then Lu Bu vassalized and I capitulated Cao Cao and Kong Rong. (Too bad Lu Bu took Xia Pi from me by culture because it had the Great Wall, and I got the 9 inner city walls event which I took the +100 espionage) Then Liu Zhang spontaneously vassalized (even though we had no contiguous borders, but he must have been afraid of Zhang Lu).
Then Liu Biao, Zhang Xiu, Yang Feng, Li Jue and finally "Ma Teng" (aka Han Sui who died).

Got almost all the shrines for once either by conquering (Liu Biu had Force, Cao Cao had Division and Liu Bei had Rebellion) or founding...even Guangling Melody.

Icy Fort + chopping jungle giving hammers = small cities in the south that had lots of infrastructure.

Spoiler :

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Being creative and organized is optimal since you can get cities early with culture and cost less to maintain. Order of elimination: Liu Chong (before he gets crossbows and I was helped by Zang Ba), Cao Cao, then built a city for the iron and copper west of Qiao, then Liu Biao (before he gets any swift bowmen, thank you very much), Lu Bu, Yuan Shu and Liu Bei (these three were in a war that weakened all of them), (Zhang Xiu spontaneously vassalized), Kong Rong, Yuan Shao, Gongsun Zan, (Zhang Yan spontaneously vassalized), Zhang Yang, Li Jue (who kidnapped the emperor which I rescued back to Mo Ling/Chen Liu), Han Sui, Ma Teng, Liu Yao, and finally Sun Ce.

Even though you start at peace with barbs, eventually they will declare war.

There's still the bug of generals being generated due to wins from barbs, but not appearing in any of your cities. Which explains why I had 4-5 missing generals.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Too bad he died in 216, and a newcomer (Yue Jin who was just captured from Yizhou) became the leader...not everybody agreed with this.
Order of elimination: Weakened Yuan Shao by capturing one city, then Zhang Yang (too bad no nomadic camps captured), then Yuan Shao for good. To secure the north, Gongsun Zan, and maintained good relations with Gongsun Du (who was the first to vassalize). Then Cao Cao (who was embroiled in a war against Lu Bu who eventually got killed by Liu Bei), Liu Bei, Kong Rong, Li Jue (who was busy against Zhang Lu), Liu Chong, Yuan Shu. Then Zhang Lu declared on Liu Zhang and I bribed him to sponatneously vassalize to me, saving me a lot of grief. Then EVERYBODY got bribed to DOW against Liu Zhang and I captured 2 cities before he vassalized. Then Liu Biao (who had Liu Yao and Zhang Xiu as vassals) and all were vassalized. Final vassal was Meng Huo even though I really didn't need him (just needed 0.5% for domination, i.e. 1 city founded in the south), but 3.5% land was his domain and elephants.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Not just that he has probably the worst combination of traits (why expansive when there are no freaking harbors to be built, and who needs protective when one needs to expand quickly and kill Li Jue), but to die before his nemesis Ma Teng takes over (and gives his faction a much better set of traits), that's just bad luck. Can't expand as quickly to the central plains as Ma Teng due to lack of good horses (but easily remedied by getting Ma Teng's capital early), so I was going for a cultural win when Gongsun Zan declares on me, so I DOW him and I found I was close to domination. Liu Zhang vassalized early on even though he could have crushed Zhang Lu with or without me.

This is the only game which I didn't get the emperor (was about to when Liu Biao capitulated Zhang Xiu).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Liaodung is a worse death trap than Kong Rong's Qingzhou. No rivers, a few mountains, fewer food (just deer!?). What you do have is copper which is key to expansion.

Found city 1S (the deer there is a on a grassland which allows quicker growth, also you miss a peak and all tiles can be used). Switch to Mohism and do hunting, post road, mining, swordsmanship (reveals copper and by then you would already have a connected mine there), high rise structures (need some collateral damage for Gongsun Zan's archers), shipbuilding and animal husbandry. As soon as your capital grows to size 4, build nothing but halberdiers and levy crossbows. Build a road around the peninsula and build 2 floor galleys to shuttle troops towards the mainland. When you attack, Gongsun Zan should have nothing but 1-2 archers in his capital. Found 3 cities in his traditional lands and take Gao Ping from Yuan Shao, then 2 more cities in a second war which effectively nerfs him. Kong Rong should be done between these 2 wars. Then it's just biding time when you take out Yuan Shao for good, Zhang Yan, Lu Bu, Liu Bei (who built many many wonders I wanted).

Just like the USSR, I basically set up a set of satellite states around me which doesn't allow anybody (except Sun Ce but the AI is sucked into a permanent war with Yan Baihu so can't DOW on me): Cao Ren, Yuan Shao, Liu Chong, Yang Feng, Li Jue and Zhang Lu. If I had the patience I could have done domination (since I had the largest stack ever: 100+ units in Lin Jing!)...but Gongsun Du just wanted peace and I was running Division, after all.

Spoiler :

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Meng Huo is destined not to conquer China (by the time you have infrastructure like roads developed everybody is too socked in to be dislodged easily). But you can build a large empire, and if Liu Biao in this game weren't so aggressive (actually DOW'd on me at one time but easily repelled), I would have most of southern China under my grasp. The terrain is not very hospitable but easily defended.

Found on site, worker, then Great Wall (since you're industrious and it gives early culture and defense for all cities, plus a great strategist generation). Then nothing but halberdiers, 1 per settler.
Hunting, post road, mining, swordsmanship, etc. but aim for anesthesia.
Early on, Liu Zhang actually vassalized spontaneously when Ma Teng DOW'd on him which made stealing techs much easier.

Spoiler :

 

[Kenjister]

Dang, you actually went through all of them! All the strategies look quite sound too, though I seem to notice a preference for culture. Good job!

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Dang, you actually went through all of them! All the strategies look quite sound too, though I seem to notice a preference for culture. Good job!

Really? Of all the factions, only Meng Huo, Gongsun Du (and that was because I was lazy), and Liu Yao (again laziness on my part) were culture victories. Even Yan Baihu, Yang Feng and Kong Rong (the latter 2 with 2+ culture per city) I played domination.

 

[Kenjister]

Well... now that you list it out, it seems alot less. I suppose it's because I never really go for cultural
I just seem to find it odd that everyone in China bows down to Meng Huo great Nanman culture and immediately concedes rulership of the land to him.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I just find it ironic that it's the barbaric Nanman who builds the Great Wall (to keep the barbaric Chinese out) and builds Luoyang.
The Nanzhao/Dali kingdom actually captured Cheng Du at one time but were beaten back by the Tang before finally being conquered by the Mongols in 1253 AD. So it wasn't SO out of the realm of possibility for Meng Huo to build it.

 

[scholar123]

Well... Meng Huo wasn't really a Nanman but a disgruntled Shu official, a little bit less than Yong Kai. He was basically a Chinese official leading the Nanman. Yong Kai could be said to have been a better and more talented official who's change in allegiance actually caused Shu to have a strong enough need to go to war down south against him and his southern allies.

Kong Rong is actually fairly easy to use, even with just two cities if you just focus on building buildings for the first few years and pruchase/recruit a few heroes and build up units for them you find that it get's really easy. If you can manage to get Gongsun Du's city to switch allegiance due to culture and with that going to war with Zang Ba isn't so difficult. Lu Bu and Cao Cao are at war nearly constantly for a while. Yuan Shao can't seem to defeat Gongsun Zan so there is plenty of wiggle room for you to defeat Zang Ba. Afterwords you can recruit the actual general himself and that makes it even more easy as you notice heroes and leaders dying left and right. Zhang Fei, Guan Yu, Xiahou Yuan, Cao Cao, Yue Jin, Xiahou Dun, Cao Ren, and others start to die around you. Without the great men it's easy to declare war, take a few cities and then make peace with them when you are running out of gold or troops. A cultural vicotory isn't so hard. A domination victory could happen easily if you force them to capitulate and then go to war with the next one.

Yuan Shu is harder to use, but equally easy if you push an early advantage against Liu Chong and against the bickering warlords. Though the diplomacy is a bit of a pain as allies are few to come by and Liu Bei has something against you. It's still fun, sadly the game crashed several times before I could actual win as him.