Survey: Best Leaders

[sampsa]

? Augi with IND + IMP and mining + fishing strikes me as good leader even without Praets.

For me, mining is the only good thing there. IND/IMP is way below average. Well, at least no myst and no PRO.

edit: it's actually very comparable to Stalin (IND/AGG, hunt+min), who I'd assume get's placed to the tier after Toku/Charly/Saladin.

 

[Fippy]

I like Ind + Imp, personal taste i guess
(will skip mentioning why, i think we all know that)

Understandable. Would you be okay to just break the ties in your original list and I come up with a suggestion for the 30 bottom based on other people's lists?

Sowy missed that, sure everything is fine. Can use the ones i mention first as tie breaker.

 

[Pedro78]

I'm really not a fan of IND. It makes wonder building a bit more attractive, and fail gold a bit more powerful. The cheap forges can be nice in the event of an Engineering / ChoKo rush. IMO it's a very fun trait given certain conditions, but in most games it really doesn't bring much. So when rolling a random map, I think any trait but agg/pro would yield a better win rate than IND (even if marginally).

 

[krikav]

You don't like AGG either @Pedro78 ?
I like that trait alot, cheap barracks means one can handle barbs with cover promoted warriors and avoid archery in situations where it might be called for.
And the combat bonus to melee/gunpowder means it's so much easier to reach nice promotions. Drafted rifles with combat1+pinch is sweet, and it opens up possibilities for promotion of amphibious grenadiers or rifles too, just requires 5xp! Same with formation pikes...
I tend to build alot of barracks and thus the savings in hammers can be quite siginificant too, and the combat bonus is also golden in axe rushes.

 

[Pedro78]

@krikav
I like AGG because it's a fun trait. Axe rushes are one of the most fun/rewarding types of warfare. All the things you pointed out (you forgot about the cheap Drydocks, which are fun too) are also fun nice-to-haves.
Not a fan of cover promoted warriors though. An early barracks is still almost 2 warriors, and in most cases (not all, though) I'd rather have 1-2 extra early fogbusters than a cover promotion.

Now that you make me think of it, I probably underrated it a little bit in my spreadsheet. But all in all, it's still the second weakest trait in my book: if you can attack a few turns earlier, not having that extra promotion doesn't matter.

Formation Pikes are really nice when you have to fight cuirs, though.

 

[Tobiyogi]

speaking of "bad" traits like IND and ORG, i remember two great games with Rosy, a guy you would probably not consider to be in the Top 30. That was not Deity level of course. Even if you miss the GLH, you can build up a very efficient empire with Forges and CH everywhere (factories later), self-sustaining cities that will go high production in the late-game. For me, Rosy is very comparable to Bismarck, the latter gets his cheaper UB-factories with coal. Even a bit stronger than Bismarck because of FISH over HUNT (and the chance to go for GLH early).

 

[rah]

I like the cheap forges because they help me with happiness when I really need the help.

 

[Fippy]

speaking of "bad" traits like IND and ORG

Must be @Lain influence lol, but he corrected his view on IND recently i think

For me it's weird if peoples mention no early game help as with traits like CRE,
GLH and Pyras are huge early wonders, and even failgold can be increased early.

Also TGW can be a great wonder on maps that have increased difficulty due to large barb spawning areas,
and if not succesful we spend less time / get more gold.

Imo just one of those trends, IND was considered top tier years ago.

 

[sampsa]

speaking of "bad" traits like IND and ORG, i remember two great games with Rosy, a guy you would probably not consider to be in the Top 30.

True, not in top 30, because agri is the best thing he has. He is "mr GLH", and on a the right map that will salvage a lot. Of course you can have a great game with any leader.

Maybe those traits are not bad, but they are not PHI/FIN/CRE either.

Imo just one of those trends, IND was considered top tier years ago.

Maybe around the time WT published his marathon space game? Soon it dawned to people that it's not that useful on "normal" settings. It's not only a trend, it's evolution.

 

[Fippy]

Not connected to WT or HoF games in general.
IND was well regarded for regular map gaming, with some players considering it best as well.
For me there's still no reason why i would rate Cre or Fin higher.

 

[drewisfat]

Also TGW can be a great wonder on maps that have increased difficulty due to large barb spawning areas,
and if not succesful we spend less time / get more gold.

And this is a point worth elaborating on. When you're IND you can wind up building getting some lucky wonders way past the time they can be "secured", because the failgold was already itself the best build choice. I actually grabbed ToA recently at like t100.

I think IND gets a bad rap because when everyone's new they build all the wonders, and then they realize building all the wonders is bad. But it has a big resurgence on Deity where:
- Early wonders are hard to "secure" without IND.
- The Aesthetics line is incredibly attractive for trading purposes.
- Building wealth is necessary to be efficient with all the maintenance costs otherwise destroying your slider.

IND is a 50% buff to building wealth (via fail gold). It is faulty logic to say that IND requires marble and stone to shine. It shines with or without those things. May actually be MORE significant without other production modifiers.
Forges are the most expensive "essential" building. The pure hammer bonus of IND shouldn't be understated. Even ignoring big wonders, just nat wonders + forges means this typically saves more hammers than anything else.

A lot of discussion has been had about the importance of starting techs, but none on how IND plays a role here. Myst goes from being the worst starting tech to being a good starting tech with IND. Can freely dump a couple of odd hammer turns into SH for failgold. But mainly you're much more likely to go for masonry with IND, which Myst boosts. Important factor for building TGW. Fishing is a pretty hit or miss starter, but with IND this can be thought of as keeping the GLh rush open. Basically if you have IND the only bad starting tech is Hunting. The only IND leader I wouldn't put towards the top of the pack is Stalin for this reason, and b.c AGG doesn't sync well with IND or Cossacks.

@sampsa timing off on that. It was widely considered top tier with a plurality ranking it as the best trait when I used the forums more regularly (5-8 years ago).

 

[sampsa]

Myst goes from being the worst starting tech to being a good starting tech with IND.

I agree that myst is not that worthless if it allows failgold at 1 to 1,5 ratio, but calling it good is quite a stretch.

@sampsa timing off on that. It was widely considered top tier with a plurality ranking it as the best trait when I used the forums more regularly (5-8 years ago).

Oh ok, so it was just the latest surge in popularity. Of course, back in the days many people though ORG was the best trait. Courthouses were an absolutely mandatory build if you had 6 cities and so on, that's why I rather speak about "evolution" than about "trend". It is reasonable to assume that the knowledge today is of much higher standard than it was many years ago, so I'd be wary of putting a lot of weight into what was thought in the past and dubbing it under trend.

 

[drewisfat]

I don't think it's reasonable to assume progress in theory is linear indefinitely on an aging game. Can just as easily devolve after X years and -99% of player base. Whoever remains an active poster has a big voice. Lain especially since he's the most prolific (and amazing) streamer.

ORG being overrated was probably more about difference in settings. I think big maps used to be a lot more popular.

 

[sampsa]

I don't think the progress is necessarily linear, especially indefinitely, and that's not what I said or implied, but I'm saying that there is progress. Of course some people might even have caused regression if they were loud enough and filled with poor insight of the game.

 

[Pedro78]

I feel like people are overstating the actual impact of the IND trait in "standard" games.

IMO there are 3 main scenarios where IND is a top-tier trait:

1. You're on a map where either the Mids or the GLH is game-changing, and have low production, i.e. the extra hammers are actually a big deal
2. You're on a very wonder-friendly map: stone, marble, lots of forests, no early strategic resource, not much good land, isolated (a few of these conditions at least)
3. You're on Great Wall - friendly map (which is about 20% of the Fractal maps and a bit more on Continents/Hemisphere)

If none of these scenarios apply, IND is usually weaker than AGG, because the bonuses it provides are simply not that significant.

 

[Fippy]

You're on a map where either the Mids or the GLH is game-changing, and have low production, i.e. the extra hammers are actually a big deal.

Have to disagree with the low prod part, extra wonder hammers are always important on deity.
I have lost GLH or Pyras in so many games very early (T50 on). Most hammers come from chopping with those wonders, it's rare that no forests are around.

 

[krikav]

Good synergy with Stalin though, agg+ind, cheaper forges and cheaper barracks! And in his case it's probably beneficial that he doesn't start with fishing as that keeps machinery and/or engineering bulb open.

 

[earthy]

Good synergy with Stalin though, agg+ind, cheaper forges and cheaper barracks! And in his case it's probably beneficial that he doesn't start with fishing as that keeps machinery and/or engineering bulb open.

derailing the thread a bit, but machinery bulb seems like a PITA. It's something like this right: Avoid fishing. After writing, tech Aesth. Trade Aesth for Alpha, IW, Math. Self-tech or trade for MC and masonry, and then finally bulb machinery? A bit

 

[Pedro78]

Have to disagree with the low prod part, extra wonder hammers are always important on deity.
I have lost GLH or Pyras in so many games very early (T50 on). Most hammers come from chopping with those wonders, it's rare that no forests are around.

What I meant was a low-production start in general. If you're on a double clam start with only 5 forests and GLH is critical, IND will really shine. On the other hand, if you have a bunch of forests + power tiles, IND will save you a few forests but it likely won't be game-changing.

Good synergy with Stalin though, agg+ind, cheaper forges and cheaper barracks! And in his case it's probably beneficial that he doesn't start with fishing as that keeps machinery and/or engineering bulb open.

Also has decent starting techs for TGW. These synergies are worth noting, but they're still minor details.

derailing the thread a bit, but machinery bulb seems like a PITA. It's something like this right: Avoid fishing. After writing, tech Aesth. Trade Aesth for Alpha, IW, Math. Self-tech or trade for MC and masonry, and then finally bulb machinery? A bit

It's not always the easiest thing to plan, but ~600BC trebs make up for it.

 

[sampsa]

derailing the thread a bit, but machinery bulb seems like a PITA. It's something like this right: Avoid fishing. After writing, tech Aesth. Trade Aesth for Alpha, IW, Math. Self-tech or trade for MC and masonry, and then finally bulb machinery? A bit

I think it's easier to do on deity really, since you can count on getting those trades.