TAM for CIV5

I am not keen on making the combat system more complex. The good thing about combat in CIV is that it's a very straightforward system. I'd shy away from stacking, because that's what we had before. Instead we need to go down new avenues, and not try to replicate things from CIV4.

I also thought about doing more with promotions and less with new units. Some promotions might come automatically when a tech is researched, for example.
 
It's not really about complexity, if we want to change thing similar to what we did in Civ4, and since Civ5 is now about positional combat and not +/- vs type combat, we need to find way to have the same depth as before, and get even closer to real ancient tactics and warfare, but still make it "TAM Fun"(tm). For example, a late Mobility promotion that allows to move after attack (so that you can fall back), Hold the Line promotion that gives bonus to units around you, a Skirmisher one that allows light units to stack as a non-combat unit (only one combat + one non-combat can be on a Tile in Civ5, so we're not reintroducing stacking really), etc. They could come from XP or buildings. These aren't huge changes, since the new combat system is a lot closer to what we envisioned in Civ4.

Anyway, we'll have to talk about it in more details and tests the possibilities, these are mostly just ideas that popped into my head.

Also some notes and ideas I had when playing Civ5:

We need to reduce unit type and space them a lot. We want ancient combat combat to be focused on archers and chariots, classical combat with Hoplites, and so on. Promotions would differentiate tactics and such instead of unit types. One or 2 unit type per eras is enough. Swordsman/axeman/maceman/spearman are mostly infantry with diff. weapons and tactics, that could be differenced by promotions and buildings in your cities. That's the difference between a simple spearman and a trained hoplite with specialized equipment.

Since not many civ really had a standing army before the marcus reform, and armies were raised from citizens and wealth, we might want to look at how we could do it in Civ5. Now that everything is about wealth and gold, mostly, this could be actually easier to do than in Civ4 with the conscription option. Richer civs would raise bigger armies, others would need to have better individual units to survive, kind like achaean league vs aetolian league. As I've said before, Mercenaries could be something interesting too, you could recruit from military City States instead of receiving automatic units when they are neutral.

We could make greek cities as City States and make Macedonia the playable Civ. If we make the map big enough, we could have Athens, Delphi, Thebes, Sparta and Corinth as City States that you could ally with, conquer or such. We could make City States more active, declaring wars against each others, allying themselves, and so on.

Also, an idea, maybe being able to settle a City State instead of a normal city, that costs nothing in term of happiness, you gain resources and you'd start as allies, but that could change over time. You could probably release them as independent, or take over later. This would simulate Colonies and such, which is pretty important for Greece and Phoenicia. Or, city states could build settlers and settle but it would create another allied City State...

BTW, should we use the mailing list for Civ5 dev, create another one? I could setup a dev wiki for the team, a place for source control (to make the integrator's life easier and between contributors), a place to track issues and suggestions, etc. Maybe I'm too eager and jumping the gun a bit tho... :p
 
Why not use this forum for discussions? Mails make it harder to follow long discussions. And a private forum is only necessary if posts by non-"team members" make posts by team members hard to track down. But this forum doesn't have that much activity.
 
We WILL continue to use this forum of course, we need public discussions to be easy. We will most probably have a separate TAM5 forum at one point, where discussions about the new Mod will take place, even if we might use other means to communicate between dev team members.

I mean... civfanatics has always been our public relations agency;)
 
If there is going to be TAM for Civ5 I would be glad to join your team and help with some input. I have not read through what you have written here yet, but will do ;)
 
I have read through the thread, and support the idea of Macedon as the Playable greek faction. I do also like the ideas of having units cost less to build, but more to maintance. Another idea that could be implemented could be that Militaristic city states could build units avaible for Mercanaries for other civs. They cost you extra maintanance, but are generally a bit better. However, losing a mercanary, could provide a negative hit on City-State relationship.
 
hi

im happy to read about TAM on CIV5. im fan since the first hour on CIV3 platform.

i have a little wish for develope and release steps of the mod:

please, make small steps in developement and release.
first release the civilizations and only the fist two eras with the standard game techs. a tam map or two give the first release a base to develope new ideas.

next steps are changing all the other things in split develope ways/teams like technologies, units...

for an developer its important to see the game grows and for the player its important too, both stay are depending on the mod is go on. new ideas comes through playing an early mod state and give both a direct feedback ressource.

its easy to carry a stone as to carry a mountain ;)

thx for tam

Armarius

(sorry for my english)
 
Don't forget armenia~~!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cmon people!!!! I will support this mod my favorite as it is cradle of civilization + lets make it awesome
 
There were a small kingdom who shifted as a throwing ball between the Parthians and Rome, though I do not think it is significant enough. Maybe Pontus could be an idea instead, led by Mithridates IV. He could be one of the regions agressors (check out this map. The original territory are in Deep Purple, his conquests in Light Purple and his conquest in the First Mithridatic Wars in green). He got pwnd by the Romans though.
Spoiler :


Edit:
Quote from the wiki:
The Kingdom of Armenia (or Greater Armenia) was an independent kingdom from 190 BC to AD 387 and a client state of the Roman and Persian empires until 428, stretching from the Caspian to the Mediterranean seas.
I say no, as I do not think it was that significant.
 
Hi Vebear,

the map above is really interesting in order to provide city-name list for civs and city-states in TAM 5.
Could you provide similar ancient map for other mediterranean areas?
 
@veBear, the problem is, I think, the Asia Minor is already small enough and get quite crowded already for another major Civ. If there's plan to add another civ, probably something to accompany lonely Carthage in north west africa.

If Civ5 will use Civ4's map as template, I think it may be best to remove the part around north west india, or add some civ over there. At this time, there is a lot of empty space in the east side of the map.
 
There was Urartu, which was centered on Lake Van, existed for some 400 years and expanded into Syria at some point. But of course it depends on map size. At the very least, a city state around Lake Van would make sense.
 
I thought maybe we could do a Civ5 and replace some of the old classics with new, unexpected civs, which was why I proposed Pontus. Could be interesting. I would also wote for adding a Numidia, probably starting in Algeria. Carthage feels a bit lonely. Also, an idea to fill up the area east and southeast of the Caspian Sea, the Parthians could be interesting. I have ot admit that I never play those large maps with the huge "Siberia", but instead keep to the other, a bit smaller huge full civs map, but that is just my opinion on favorite map. And I could try to provide some other maps, though I found that one under Mithridates IV on the Wiki. I have also started on a small city-state proposal list. Here is how it looks so far:

Militaristic:
Sparta
Jerusalem (or Cultural)
Hecatompylos (if Parthians are not full civ)
Asaak (if Parthian are not full civ)

Maritime:
Genoa (phoenician colony)
Athens
Knossos (if Minoans are not full civ)
Barkenon (The name of Barcelona in the legend where it is founded by Hamilcar Barca)

Cultural:
Jerusalem (if not militaristic)
Mycenæ (may also be maritime)

That's all I got for now, will get back to it later ;)
 
There was Urartu, which was centered on Lake Van, existed for some 400 years and expanded into Syria at some point. But of course it depends on map size. At the very least, a city state around Lake Van would make sense.

Thanks for pointing that out Maniac, i was about to tell them. Nakichevan which used to belong to Urartu(Babylonian word for Armenia meaning Land of Ararat) existed as far back 5000 B.C. and their is a Stonehenge their with the Armenian pantheon proving it.http://www.hossank.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244

Heres some more info...

Spoiler :

Ancient Armenia (3500 BC - 520 BC)

Armenia is one of the oldest countries in the world with a recorded history of about 3500 years. The oldest known ancestors of modern Armenians, the Hayasa-Azzi tribes, also known as Proto-Armenians, were indigenous to the Armenian Highland in Eastern Anatolia. These tribes formed the Nairi tribal union, which existed until late 13th century BC.


Heres some more links just in case you were still skeptical...

http://www.armenianhistory.info/origins.htm
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Ancient_Armenia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQi7bF0XPAw
http://www.armenian-history.com/HISTORY.htm
http://today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/2-world-s-oldest-shoe-160052.aspx
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Asia/Armenia/_Texts/KURARM/home.html
http://www.arak29.am/PDF_PPT/origins_2004.pdf
http://arevordi.blogspot.com/
http://www.hossank.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9


CHECK THIS ONE FORSURE BECAUSE IT HAS SOME MAPS>>>>
http://www.armenian-history.com/Maps_of_Armenia.htm


[SOURCE=http://www.armenianhighland.com/main.html]
The recent sensational discoveries by a team from the German Archaeological Institute [the first findings were made in 1994 and are still ongoing], led by field director Dr. Klaus Schmidt and Harald Hauptmann -- at Göbekli Tepe [lit. navel Mountain], 15 km northeast of the city of Sanliurfa, near historic Urfa or Urha, the point of origin of the Armenian Solar cult of Orion that later spread to other parts of the globe, has been a truly revolutionary archaeological discovery. The cult site consists of circular stone formations that look similar to those in Stonehenge, only that Stonehenge is about 6,000 years younger.

The first human settlements took place around the cities of Urfa [ancient Armenian Ur-hay] and modern day Diyarbakir [near the ruins of Tigranakert] in the historic Alznik province of Armenia. Excavations at one of these sites, Nevali Çori, revealed clues that the Neolithic Age had started between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C. in this area, at least 500 years earlier than at Çatal Hüyük and Hacilar. The temple architecture found here gives important clues about the beliefs of the first Civilization builder settlers, as well as for their time period very sophisticated architectural techniques. Their use of T -shaped pillars showed an advanced knowledge of how to build strong, load-bearing structures. Göbekli Tepe, shows similarities with Nevali Çori and provides support that earlier advancements in human life had taken place in the Armenian Plateau and its immediate vicinity. Rooms excavated at the site have revealed stone pillars decorated with floral and faunal reliefs. It was here at Göbekli Tepe where some of our hunter-gatherer ancestors [who were just starting to settle down and organize into societies] first created sophisticated art for ritual purposes.
 
Hello friends!

Yes, you read right. We are indeed planning on making another TAM version for CIV5, and we are confident that it will be the best TAM version ever.

The team has gathered experience with TAM since 2002, when TAM for CIV3 first launched. We've got some excellent people on board, and the CIV community as a whole has also grown and vastly improved its modding / modelling output. I personally now have much experience in professional game design and production, and I certainly plan to re-join the TAM effort. Together we will make a TAM like you have never seen.

But wait, let us not forget another factor! TAM would never have been what it became and would never have received awards, top scores, and praises, without the great feedback, enthusiasm, and support from you -- the players!

Now we would like to ask you:
- What did you like about TAM?
- What did you not like?
- What did you feel was missing?

We're looking forward to your feedback!

Thamis & the TAM-Team


I loved TAM up to the Warlord-Mac-compatible version. Ever since, I didn't have a chance to play it and I'm really having no clue, where TAM's at, now. But after having finished one and a half game of Civ V, it seems obvious, that the City States of Civ V and the reality of the ancient world are made for each other. And your announcement, that you guys are going to make a TAM like we've never seen, is likely to be true already now, if you only add the City States concept to the state as is.

It's also good to see veBear in this thread, because his Mediterranean maps will definitely be a nice asset in any mod.
 
I loved TAM in Civ III, but I didn't like Civ IV TAM I suspect for the same reasons thecivdude posted. I admit I may have given up on TAM IV too early in development and my issues may have been altered subsequently.

But I found that TAM was frustrating especially as a land power. If I conquered a large part of the world, my ecopnomy collapsed; the inflation and other penalties would kick in, but the increases in money didn't keep up as they did in Civ IV. I could play it as a naval power, but someone like Persia seemed difficult to me. Since I play on high levels, though, NOT conquering also didn't seem to work.

So I often got to 0% science and needed 00% for current income and it became a race betweeen conquering the world and my economy collapsing.

TAM III was wonderful. I lvoed the 'special ability' that gave the Civ's an hostoric feel, and I loved how the resources were spread. It really had the feel of an ancient game.

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
@Breunor
Do you play tha latest TAM 0.91?
Now economy setup is the same of BTS. Keep an eye on civics to reduce costs.
 
Wow. Five years ago I broke internet silence to give thanks for the greatness that was TAM: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3285067#post3285067

I can't believe it's been five years. Like a lot of others, I just stopped playing the vanilla game and devoted my time to The Ancient Mediterranean. I'm afraid I don't have much in the way of feedback for the latest incarnation (I don't even have the game yet), but I hope my zealous love for the mod serves as inspiration. All the people who put in work on the other versions of the mod did a bang up job. I'm delighted to hear there will be TAM for Civilization V. Thanks again, to Thamis and whoever else happens to jump on board with making the new TAM a reality.
 
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