The Birth of an Emperor?

My pb is not to loose, I like civilization to be a challenging game, but in immortal it seems to me that I did not progress at all since my first try
Can you try again and post a save of your early game and mid-game?
I found the community here really helpful in giving feedback.
Also I found that I play much much better if I actually stop the game, summarize the status and then actually think what I have to do.
Overall I found the Monarch->Emperor jump to be much harder than Emperor->Immortal jump, and I think this mainly due to the fact that for the first one I tried to do it myself, and for the immortal I post my games here. I have not mastered this level yet, but I had now 3 consecutive wins in my posted games.
 
Also consider getting monarchy early and running HR and expanding your cities vertically more quickly.

This is key. With a small number of cities (like 4) Monarchy is a much better economic tech than CoL. Hereditary Rule can really be abused. When I build the Oracle, Monarchy is the tech I most often choose.

Z
 
This is key. With a small number of cities (like 4) Monarchy is a much better economic tech than CoL. Hereditary Rule can really be abused. When I build the Oracle, Monarchy is the tech I most often choose.

Z

It is map dependent. On many map I find that I can get 2~3 happy resources early on (or trade for them), and then I go for CoL and trade it for Monarchy. The AI will trade Monarchy in return for CoL if you spend 1~2 turns of research into it.
 
I've tried the REXing using the whip to speed up infrastructure in new cities, and libraries. Indeed, I can pretty much match the research I'd had at lower levels this way. While the AI does seem to tech faster, it isn't as bad as I thought on emperor.

I'm still working on the transitions, particularly if I want to quit using mainly food cities for specialists (they seem almost necessary due to slider pains and bulb-trading, regardless of whether you plan to continue using them or use cottages) and start working cottages. I could also try SE, but the problem I seem to run into is that when warring I don't get my hands on important SE techs in time. Also, food seems a bit of a problem depending on the map (although this IS alleviated by taking enemy cities :evil:). Specialists must be fed SOMEHOW, and if there aren't enough good food resources around...

Anyway, after a few games this weekend I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel in terms of emperor games. A couple more tries and I think I'll have it. Thanks all, as usual :).
 
Meinteam,
I, like you, have just made the jump from monarch to Emperor and I feel that I may be able to help you. Imho researching is much more important than building a huge army in the early game (that can be done when you have rifles and they have macemen) so build only what you need to survive and REX like crazy (It helps if you have someone creative or imperialistic).To get early reaserch going I suggest that you focus on one wonder that would realy improve your teching strategy eg. the mids if your going SE, the GLH if your costal. If all else fails nothing helps you tech better early than cottage spam. This way even if you end up at 50% research you can still tech decently (50% of 100 is still 50). This way you easly get Col or Currency with 5-6 cities.
Spam Courthouses to cut down on maitnance while biulding libraries and markets to tech better and a few units now and then to keep the power up.
After you tech currancy trade to any AI with a decent hunk of change. not only does this keep relations up but it also lets you research at 100% for as long as possible then rinse and repeat.
I have to leave now but you can discuss that for now.
 
It sounds a lot like what I was doing on monarch (relying on cottage spam or a wonder moreso than lots of libraries running specialists). My problem with it is that if you get to 6 cities in the BC's, the slider isn't going to be at 50%. It will typically be closer to 0 than 50%. Of course, specialists can fuel research during this period as cottages grow (or be research themselves for a long time with mids). Bulbing offers trade bait, or settling in cities specialized for what the GP does, and the scientists offer 6 beakers per city on their own. Add in a few commerce tiles and something like a cottage capitol, and I'm finding it easier to get closer to double the BPT I was getting before. Cottages, as they grow, could then support raising the slider again or military upgrade money.

I've found after playing a few games that now more so than ever the tiles themselves matter a LOT. The presence of gold/silver/gems early can make a game a lot easier, as can just ridiculous amounts of food tiles or flood plains. Strategic resource monopolies are nice too, as in such a situation I'd not wait for rifles, but rather pound the nearby civs into submission easily and much sooner. Also, early jungles piss me off a lot :(.

I've long found waiting for rifles unnecessary, as long as I've had siege from the proper era I seem to clean up without any trouble at parity. This often sends me for cannons rather than rifles (and grenades are a tech away at that point). Still, even in medieval times the trebs are solid to attack with. CR II trebs will beat all but the stoutest longbows in defending cities, and tend to damage the others. A stack of them and some cleanup is all you need to wipe out HUGE medieval SoDs and force capitulation or destruction easily. Why wait for rifles? A balanced stack with trebs wins at parity NP, because the AI does some really stupid things at war, like parking its only SoD (which usually doesn't have longbows...) in a recently recaptured city and asking you to kill it quickly.
 
Why wait for rifles?
In some games you have to rely on drafting to get good production. In some games you cannot produce enough trebs for a quick war. Another issue is that a treb war might slow down your research too much.
A focus on liberalism race with rifles or cannons beeline seems to work well, but it is definitely not the only way.
 
I too am working on the jump to Emperor; and, I too am getting burried technologically. Lots of the advice here sounds good; however, it seems to be a long list of things to do that are incompatible with each other, or lots of things to do sooner, that don't correspondingly say what to put off. For example, whip more. Okay, but how do I continuously whip my cities from 4 to 2 or 5 to 3 and simultaneously run 2 scientists in each one? Another, I should get writing for libraries sooner, fine, but I also have to have Mysticism for Monuments to pop my borders, and Fishing, and Ag, and, AH, and Wheel/Pottery for cottages, and bronze, (and Iron because there is no bronze), and they say you need Archers at this level because the Barbs will overrun your Warrior defended cities etc. etc.

As you can see, I've gotten a little frustrated. I suppose what I need most help in is help prioritizing the very early research goals. I'll settle for that and see if I can apply it.
 
you may not want to wait for rifles but I found that they can really clean up against backwards AI's. Also I still don't see how you are unable to support your empire at 6 cities. I did exactly what I was telling you in my latest game and ended up taking Physics with Lib (I was going to take Steam power but I got a ridiculous trade, Sci Meth and gold for education, and it popped up) and look to win a space race in 1650.

It helps to not rely on early wars that hamper your research but instead blow past the AI's and then crush them under your boot.
 
I've tried both ways actually. I definitely run into gold problems with 6 cities though, unless I'm organized, financial, or have powerful resources available to me.

As for warring early or later, I find it situational. When land grab is easy, grab land :p. I've had middle age stuff against ai's without longbows before, and those are easy wars. My production, the AI's tech level, their troop count, whether I can backstab, etc all factor into my decision to hit sooner or wait. Problem always is, I just don't seem to be able to tech at the rate you describe. I could always get a minor tech lead on monarch...along the lines of maybe 20-30 epic turns to use my recently acquired rifles, cannons, or grenades to mop up somebody before other ai's had them. Of course, there would always be a civ or two backwards enough to crush after my first gunpowder victim, and if I got THAT big the game was in hand.

I'm not getting there first on emperor. Not yet. However it's looking more promising than it did even last week.
 
I too am working on the jump to Emperor; and, I too am getting burried technologically. Lots of the advice here sounds good; however, it seems to be a long list of things to do that are incompatible with each other, or lots of things to do sooner, that don't correspondingly say what to put off. For example, whip more. Okay, but how do I continuously whip my cities from 4 to 2 or 5 to 3 and simultaneously run 2 scientists in each one? Another, I should get writing for libraries sooner, fine, but I also have to have Mysticism for Monuments to pop my borders, and Fishing, and Ag, and, AH, and Wheel/Pottery for cottages, and bronze, (and Iron because there is no bronze), and they say you need Archers at this level because the Barbs will overrun your Warrior defended cities etc. etc.

As you can see, I've gotten a little frustrated. I suppose what I need most help in is help prioritizing the very early research goals. I'll settle for that and see if I can apply it.

Whipping more isn't really good advice. In fact overwhipping is as bad as never whipping.

Consider what your city needs and whip it in while the city is small and then wait on adding other infrastructure - either slow building or whipping unhappy citizens.

Eg Commerce city.

In early game may only need a monument. Then just leave it alone and let it grow.

Later you will want a granary for higher caps and a courthouse if its outlying.

Much later add libraries (often your slider is too low to use them) and markets once it produces enough commerce to be worth it.

Or in Science city.

In early game it only needs a library. Run your two scientists.

Later add granary so it regrows quickly and a courthouse so you can add a spy.

Much later add forge and other buildings.

Production cities:

Whip often for units - thats OK.

Need a barracks. Later a forge.

Of course high food cities can be any of the above. And at times you may want every city to produce units. But be wary of whipping in too many buildings too early.

For research a good rule of thumb is to prioritize:

- Worker techs to unlock special tiles in capital.
- Military techs for self defense. On Emperor you probably have enough time for 3-4 techs before you must go archery (depending on whether archery is 1 or 2 techs away). So if you only spent two techs on worker techs and then try mining + bronze and didn't find copper, immediately go for archery.

Then you get strategy specific with:
- Pottery if you are intending to run cottages in your capital (if financial or floodplains) or
- Writing if you have a high food capital and intend to run scientists or
- Masonry/Mysticism if you plan on wonderspamming.

I've tried both ways actually. I definitely run into gold problems with 6 cities though, unless I'm organized, financial, or have powerful resources available to me.

As for warring early or later, I find it situational. When land grab is easy, grab land :p. I've had middle age stuff against ai's without longbows before, and those are easy wars. My production, the AI's tech level, their troop count, whether I can backstab, etc all factor into my decision to hit sooner or wait. Problem always is, I just don't seem to be able to tech at the rate you describe. I could always get a minor tech lead on monarch...along the lines of maybe 20-30 epic turns to use my recently acquired rifles, cannons, or grenades to mop up somebody before other ai's had them. Of course, there would always be a civ or two backwards enough to crush after my first gunpowder victim, and if I got THAT big the game was in hand.

I'm not getting there first on emperor. Not yet. However it's looking more promising than it did even last week.

I find on Emperor that the AI always has longbows before I have macemen. I don't reach the point of a military tech lead until cannons/rifles.
 
I'd put much more emphasis on granaries than that. Unless I need a border pop desperately, a granary will be the first improvement built in almost any city. Depending on the food/hammer situation, I probably whip it for 1 pop once half completed.
This will make the city growth afterwards *much* faster. Especially when you say
Then just leave it alone and let it grow.
this pretty much requires a granary to be effective. Any city that is supposed to grow more than 2 pop points in the near future - for whipping or working tiles - needs a granary ASAP.
 
For cottage cities: Monument->granary->lib->market->court. I whip everything when it's possible, hence granary will help a lot. Court comes after granary IF I'm playing org.

But to say granary before monument seems rather pointless. Unless all your resources and good tiles are within the first borders, which usually isn't the case.
 
You only need a granary once you have a happy cap greater than 4. So by later I mean once you have your initial happiness cap problem solved - either by HR or by pyramids - unless you are really lucky with resources or are charismatic.

Putting a granary in to rush to your happy cap of 4 seems overkill to me - especially since my early cities almost always have a food special anyway. They will grow more than fast enough at that time in the game.

But later a granary is almost always the next building built. And once my happy cap is raised nearly every city will get one quickly.
 
I have to disagree; whipping is the greatest thing ever. I just won my last two emperor games in spectacular fashion — my highest score ever (127k) and a another game that I had no business winning at all — and whipping is a big part. I didn't do it near enough before. Whipping gives you what you need quick, giving you a turn advantage. I whip the slaves so much now that when I adopt emancipation, my population starts demanding reparations.

My advice would be to whip more and learn SE. I don't prefer a strict SE to a good ol' cottage, but combining the two seems to be working very well for me. I use an SE to get me going, and then cottages to send me into the stratosphere.

Also, golden ages seem to be helping me a great deal. I rarely hear about this but I've taken to (in the last couple games at least) burning GPs on golden ages. Then, while in the golden age, I switch to pacifism. That means I can usually produce enough great persons to start the next golden age. With a little luck (and the Taj Mahal) I can get two or three of them in a row, which shoots me up big time. Artists work great for this.

So... Get that granary in there ASAP. Whipping works best when the town is small and can regrow quickly.
 
My advice would be to whip more and learn SE. I don't prefer a strict SE to a good ol' cottage, but combining the two seems to be working very well for me. I use an SE to get me going, and then cottages to send me into the stratosphere.

It looks like almost everyone is saying I need to learn to better use specialists, regardless of what "economy type" I ultimately want to end up in. Early experimentation of my own seems to indicate that such advice will help me greatly once I manage :).

Since there is somewhat of a disagreement on usage of the whip here, do you care to elaborate? Do you only whip infrastructure? Do you whip out workers and/or settlers? Do you follow invisiblestalker's advice of holding off on EARLY graneries only because the whip anger dissapates faster than the pop growth? If it's helping your early game a lot, I'd like some specifics :).
 
My early game was helped when I eased off the whip. I'm playing successfully on Immortal now so it can't be TOO bad of an approach.

I'd like to hear from the compulsive whippers what it is that they are whipping so much of. Production cities will whip units. And in war time every city will whip units. But in peacetime I need time where scientists and cottages are being worked, not just constantly farms to regrow from the last whip. So how many buildings do you need?

For cottage cities for example, I don't need a library until fairly late - because I'll almost certainly be running very low on the science slider for the first third of the game at least.

And a specialist city doesn't need a monument unless you have a perfect location with all the food resources in the outer circle. It needs a library urgently. And then later add a granary.

To put a bit of perspective on this though - in the first half of the game most of my building production will be from whipping - but that might mean that each city gets 3-4 key buildings whipped in, plus another 1-2 slow built. Military production during peak times will be mainly whipping, but during peacetimes will mainly be built off mines - since a high food site with no hills would probably become a specialist city.

I'm not arguing against whipping per se - but I found that I was doing too much of it and not getting enough scientist turns or cottage turns.
 
An Emperor is born :). In the PYL 2 game, no less! Thanks for all the advice! While my game still needs a ton of refining, I'm getting an understanding of its workings enough to compete at this level and not be overwhelmed. Probably the biggest adjustment is a reduced margin for error when it comes to strategic decisions, and getting/paying for more cities more rapidly. At least, that was the case for me. I was surprised how quickly I could turn a large # of cities / crashed economy into a winning position if I worked tiles correctly and kept power up enough to to avoid geting my face stomped in.

Winning while surrounded by a bunch of backstabbers and having to manage diplomacy as if I were on a sheet of ice made it that much sweeter for a first emperor win :).
 
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