warmwaffles
Programmer
El how much time are you having to spend between each turn?
The Cold War Deluxe; 1950-1991
- Thread starter El Justo
- Start date
El Justo
Deity
during peace: about 15 mins
during war: about 3 or 4
during war: about 3 or 4
El Justo
Deity
something's gotta be done about this.
warmwaffles
Programmer
It's the programs that I can't shut down with out my computer being shut down.....I might have to continue this mod on another faster computer.....mine only has 512MB of RAM and a 2.4 ghz processor.
But I can't shut down norton internet security.
But I can't shut down norton internet security.
El Justo
Deity
update posted
i linked MaxRiga's "micro" version of TCW up to the 1st post of this thread.
also, MaxRiga, MP/PBEM can only bedonw when there's 8 or less civs. try Klyden's fine MP version if you want to do a PBEM game. also, check out the PBEM thread for TCW. the link is in my sig.
i linked MaxRiga's "micro" version of TCW up to the 1st post of this thread.
also, MaxRiga, MP/PBEM can only bedonw when there's 8 or less civs. try Klyden's fine MP version if you want to do a PBEM game. also, check out the PBEM thread for TCW. the link is in my sig.
Retooling the game:
This is sort of a list of thoughts I have been working on, but there are also questions as well.
First, one of the big differences between TCW-MP and TCW is that on one hand, Europe is unified as one position and on the other, it is home to several different positions. This has strenghts and weaknesses:
One unified position gives the AI a better strength to work with. Science/economy should be better than a bunch of little states. It also makes it easier for a player to do well in Europe, but also presents them with interesting situations in that they have a lot of area to defend. IF it was possible for a lot of players to take the different positions in Europe, there would be better coordination of the defense of the area of WG. Right now, it is pretty much WG on its own, and as I pointed out in an earlier thread, it is very impractical to expect the WG position to handle what the WP can throw at them. They should not be able to (without help) or why would you play the game if WG can hold off the WP by itself? Now, the balance should be that WG (and other countries like France, Spain, UK, Italy and some US involvement vs the WP is a close match up. With that as a rule of thumb, game balance should work around that, because that would be what would happen if war had ever taken place.
The issue is you can't make the AI behave in that manor. (It can sometimes when it runs whatever extra tanks it feels like from France, Italy, and Spain into Germany, but it is not real consistant and I don't think you will ever see it consistant). Since you can't do that, then part of the solution seems to merge at least Spain, Italy, France in with Germany. This provides a better window for balance that can be modded. There are some issues in that the equipment Germany now can produce is of extreme high quality and that the other nations lose some of their identity. Lets face it.. if we had a choice, we all would probably take the German infantry because it simply kicks butt and the same with those Leopard tanks. To just roll everything into one big position and let them build anything they want is also dangerous.
For me, I think you merge at least Spain, France, Germany, and Italy together into one position. That helps reduce the number of positions (and then would supposedly make the game go faster). The problem is you can't restrict what is built where in terms of units like you can for improvements/wonders. Part of my solution to keep this position from building a pile of German infantry is yet another autobuilding wonder in Germany proper. Part of my envisionment is to see a very heavy defensive crust the WP must break through in Germany. It should be a hard fight and both sides will take a lot of losses. I think there is no question that would be what happened. Once the WP gets to the Rhine and WG fades from being able to resist, I think resistance would weaken somewhat. Perhaps a special resource in WG that is needed to build the Leopard tanks as well. If the WP succeeds in over running it (and the WG infantry barracks) then they help their cause.
Another position that could be merged is that of Turkey and Greece. While this makes no sense on a political front, it makes perfect sense on a military front. It is well known Greece and Turkey do not get along with each other at all, yet both are members of Nato and would be effectively fighting a common foe. Each would depend on the others success. I do NOT believe that Turkey should be allied with Israel as makes their moves way too coordinated in the middle east. Turkey should be far more concerned with what happens along the WP border while Israels concern is in the ME.
As far as units and positions go right now, I believe that the non-WP countries have the advantage right now. I have played with the WP a lot and I can win, but it is usually pretty tough. I am currently playing a game as the US in TCW-MP and it is at a higher level (Emp) than the games I have played with the WP and it is silly with what I am doing. 1963 is not even over yet and I have captured Pyonyang, liberated Venice, captured Yugoslavia, Odessa, Sevestapol, and Rostov. My Euro allies have destroyed Dresdin and captured Damascus. One city in Southern Russian has been destroyed. I have also captured all of Central America, Cuba and also Rabat in Africa along with two WP ports in the Pacific.
Some things I would like to see:
1. Add +1 hp to WP infantry. They need it. Their stats are bad enough (don't need to be fixed) to put them on the losing end of a fight with the western infantry that also has a clear hp advantage over them.
2. Increase the bombard of close support bombers and look at their rate of fire. For the most part, they are not being built right now because they are not significantly cheaper than the long range bombers, which provide for better flexibility by their range. Lessen defensive stats a bit on the long range planes. While I have been decrying the bombard rate of the WP Bears and Backfires, the fact is they have no problem chewing up any naval units I send them after and this is their primary mission for which they were intended for the most part. They absolutely struggle against the end game units the Western powers put in the field, but the short range GS planes are no better. F111 needs to be tested more, but may have to be toned down just a pinch. Bottom line is more reason needs to be given to build the ground support planes and upping their bombard so they are effective against ground targets will help. The AI has shown it can some what handle an air force.
3. Revise the last era of tech in order to make it so that you have to build the tech tree out to build all the pieces for the "space race" win. Right now, you can ignore about 1/3 of the tech tree there.
4. This is a bit more radical, but consider eliminating some positions in the interest of speeding up the game. Maybe call it a different version. Positions to remove would be those in South America and Africa (except the North African-Arab position).
5. The AI has not been building recycling centers or mass transit. As a result, the pollution has been a lot for the AI to cope with. Consider adding 1 culture to each of these improvements to give the AI an incentive to build them.
6. Consider some tweaks on the "communist" government. Being able to rush build with cash is a lot more effective than rush building with population. (Or at least reduce the effects of rush building with population as with the high costs of the units make rush building with population no good compared to how the economies generally generate cash in this game so that it is no big deal to rush build tanks, even tho it might cost you 1200 or more gold to do it). The prices for commie equipment are cheaper, which is good, but are somewhat offset by the issues with the government differences.
This is sort of a list of thoughts I have been working on, but there are also questions as well.
First, one of the big differences between TCW-MP and TCW is that on one hand, Europe is unified as one position and on the other, it is home to several different positions. This has strenghts and weaknesses:
One unified position gives the AI a better strength to work with. Science/economy should be better than a bunch of little states. It also makes it easier for a player to do well in Europe, but also presents them with interesting situations in that they have a lot of area to defend. IF it was possible for a lot of players to take the different positions in Europe, there would be better coordination of the defense of the area of WG. Right now, it is pretty much WG on its own, and as I pointed out in an earlier thread, it is very impractical to expect the WG position to handle what the WP can throw at them. They should not be able to (without help) or why would you play the game if WG can hold off the WP by itself? Now, the balance should be that WG (and other countries like France, Spain, UK, Italy and some US involvement vs the WP is a close match up. With that as a rule of thumb, game balance should work around that, because that would be what would happen if war had ever taken place.
The issue is you can't make the AI behave in that manor. (It can sometimes when it runs whatever extra tanks it feels like from France, Italy, and Spain into Germany, but it is not real consistant and I don't think you will ever see it consistant). Since you can't do that, then part of the solution seems to merge at least Spain, Italy, France in with Germany. This provides a better window for balance that can be modded. There are some issues in that the equipment Germany now can produce is of extreme high quality and that the other nations lose some of their identity. Lets face it.. if we had a choice, we all would probably take the German infantry because it simply kicks butt and the same with those Leopard tanks. To just roll everything into one big position and let them build anything they want is also dangerous.
For me, I think you merge at least Spain, France, Germany, and Italy together into one position. That helps reduce the number of positions (and then would supposedly make the game go faster). The problem is you can't restrict what is built where in terms of units like you can for improvements/wonders. Part of my solution to keep this position from building a pile of German infantry is yet another autobuilding wonder in Germany proper. Part of my envisionment is to see a very heavy defensive crust the WP must break through in Germany. It should be a hard fight and both sides will take a lot of losses. I think there is no question that would be what happened. Once the WP gets to the Rhine and WG fades from being able to resist, I think resistance would weaken somewhat. Perhaps a special resource in WG that is needed to build the Leopard tanks as well. If the WP succeeds in over running it (and the WG infantry barracks) then they help their cause.
Another position that could be merged is that of Turkey and Greece. While this makes no sense on a political front, it makes perfect sense on a military front. It is well known Greece and Turkey do not get along with each other at all, yet both are members of Nato and would be effectively fighting a common foe. Each would depend on the others success. I do NOT believe that Turkey should be allied with Israel as makes their moves way too coordinated in the middle east. Turkey should be far more concerned with what happens along the WP border while Israels concern is in the ME.
As far as units and positions go right now, I believe that the non-WP countries have the advantage right now. I have played with the WP a lot and I can win, but it is usually pretty tough. I am currently playing a game as the US in TCW-MP and it is at a higher level (Emp) than the games I have played with the WP and it is silly with what I am doing. 1963 is not even over yet and I have captured Pyonyang, liberated Venice, captured Yugoslavia, Odessa, Sevestapol, and Rostov. My Euro allies have destroyed Dresdin and captured Damascus. One city in Southern Russian has been destroyed. I have also captured all of Central America, Cuba and also Rabat in Africa along with two WP ports in the Pacific.
Some things I would like to see:
1. Add +1 hp to WP infantry. They need it. Their stats are bad enough (don't need to be fixed) to put them on the losing end of a fight with the western infantry that also has a clear hp advantage over them.
2. Increase the bombard of close support bombers and look at their rate of fire. For the most part, they are not being built right now because they are not significantly cheaper than the long range bombers, which provide for better flexibility by their range. Lessen defensive stats a bit on the long range planes. While I have been decrying the bombard rate of the WP Bears and Backfires, the fact is they have no problem chewing up any naval units I send them after and this is their primary mission for which they were intended for the most part. They absolutely struggle against the end game units the Western powers put in the field, but the short range GS planes are no better. F111 needs to be tested more, but may have to be toned down just a pinch. Bottom line is more reason needs to be given to build the ground support planes and upping their bombard so they are effective against ground targets will help. The AI has shown it can some what handle an air force.
3. Revise the last era of tech in order to make it so that you have to build the tech tree out to build all the pieces for the "space race" win. Right now, you can ignore about 1/3 of the tech tree there.
4. This is a bit more radical, but consider eliminating some positions in the interest of speeding up the game. Maybe call it a different version. Positions to remove would be those in South America and Africa (except the North African-Arab position).
5. The AI has not been building recycling centers or mass transit. As a result, the pollution has been a lot for the AI to cope with. Consider adding 1 culture to each of these improvements to give the AI an incentive to build them.
6. Consider some tweaks on the "communist" government. Being able to rush build with cash is a lot more effective than rush building with population. (Or at least reduce the effects of rush building with population as with the high costs of the units make rush building with population no good compared to how the economies generally generate cash in this game so that it is no big deal to rush build tanks, even tho it might cost you 1200 or more gold to do it). The prices for commie equipment are cheaper, which is good, but are somewhat offset by the issues with the government differences.
Forgot one..
Right now, no real reason to build mech infantry, especially for the US and Euros as their tank units are higher on defense. Lower tank defensive and raise up the mech units to where the tanks where in most cases should do the trick to give folks a reason to build them.
Right now, no real reason to build mech infantry, especially for the US and Euros as their tank units are higher on defense. Lower tank defensive and raise up the mech units to where the tanks where in most cases should do the trick to give folks a reason to build them.
warmwaffles
Programmer
Ya thats what I was thinking lower defense and raise mech infantry so we have a ligetement reason to build them.....cuz right now they really aren't any help to the game.
BTW since the game moves faster in war time I am gonna be in war like the whole time to finish this god dang review
BTW since the game moves faster in war time I am gonna be in war like the whole time to finish this god dang review
El Justo
Deity
good points Kly.
Soviet Inf deserves another HP i guess.
a yes to the WP Gr Attack Aircraft stats.
i'll have to look at the tech tree again to see if any options exist. to be honest, i've paid very little attention to the space race in my personal game.
i'd like to keep the SA civs intact if we can help it.
very good idea on the pollution reducing improvements.
i'll have to look at the communist govt settings again as well.
here are some more thoughts...
greece/italy/turkey as a merged civ? i say this b/c the 'hardware' aspect of merging these positions isn't really a factor or at least not nearly as difficult as some of the other ones. i'd like to keep Iberia intact and maybe (a big maybe) merge France/WG/LL.
build que problems would crop up and an across-the-board euro stat reduction would have to be considered to make certain units viable enough to build or use. this is an awful lot.
MBT D #s need to be lowered in order to make the mech inf an option. i still haven't built one in my personal game.
another option to speed up turn times would be to make a 'locked war' setup between the blues and the reds or USA/NATO vs WP and all else not alligned. there is a HUGE difference in times. i initiated war just to reduce turn times from like 20 mins to 4. no kidding.
i'd really like to see a sino-soviet non-alligned setup. china could be left out of any alliance.
Soviet Inf deserves another HP i guess.
a yes to the WP Gr Attack Aircraft stats.
i'll have to look at the tech tree again to see if any options exist. to be honest, i've paid very little attention to the space race in my personal game.
i'd like to keep the SA civs intact if we can help it.
very good idea on the pollution reducing improvements.
i'll have to look at the communist govt settings again as well.
here are some more thoughts...
greece/italy/turkey as a merged civ? i say this b/c the 'hardware' aspect of merging these positions isn't really a factor or at least not nearly as difficult as some of the other ones. i'd like to keep Iberia intact and maybe (a big maybe) merge France/WG/LL.
build que problems would crop up and an across-the-board euro stat reduction would have to be considered to make certain units viable enough to build or use. this is an awful lot.
MBT D #s need to be lowered in order to make the mech inf an option. i still haven't built one in my personal game.
another option to speed up turn times would be to make a 'locked war' setup between the blues and the reds or USA/NATO vs WP and all else not alligned. there is a HUGE difference in times. i initiated war just to reduce turn times from like 20 mins to 4. no kidding.
i'd really like to see a sino-soviet non-alligned setup. china could be left out of any alliance.
El Justo
Deity
more playtesting
USA demigid level Apr 1973
i initiated war just to break the monotiny of the turn times. it helped, too. they're back to about 4 mins or so.
i've broken through into Serbia and have those 60+ units plus the newly arrived Atlantic Fleet mech units (20 more M1s and 4 Patriot Batteries).
spy missions on the turn prior to war revealed that belgrade was very lightly defended (4 mech units) while Sarejevo and Munich were jammed w/ units; at least 15 for each spot.
i launched what amounted to be probably the worst air raid i've ever conducted in any civ game. i lost 6 (no typo) A10s in a row and then 2 straight Apaches. unbelievable. thank goodness it wasn't my buff'ers. i dare not bring them around these parts (eastern europe) until the air is under my control.
however, the next turn, WP launched about 6 or 8 sorties and they were each shot down. every single one either by my intercepting f15s or those beastly Patriot Missile Batteries and their 24 AA defense. sick stuff. i guess it's tit for tat.
my Pacific Fleet is coming along nicely. i've added a few more Tarawa-class carrier/transport. i love that high mvmt rate (7 or 8 iirc).
USA demigid level Apr 1973
i initiated war just to break the monotiny of the turn times. it helped, too. they're back to about 4 mins or so.
i've broken through into Serbia and have those 60+ units plus the newly arrived Atlantic Fleet mech units (20 more M1s and 4 Patriot Batteries).
spy missions on the turn prior to war revealed that belgrade was very lightly defended (4 mech units) while Sarejevo and Munich were jammed w/ units; at least 15 for each spot.
i launched what amounted to be probably the worst air raid i've ever conducted in any civ game. i lost 6 (no typo) A10s in a row and then 2 straight Apaches. unbelievable. thank goodness it wasn't my buff'ers. i dare not bring them around these parts (eastern europe) until the air is under my control.
however, the next turn, WP launched about 6 or 8 sorties and they were each shot down. every single one either by my intercepting f15s or those beastly Patriot Missile Batteries and their 24 AA defense. sick stuff. i guess it's tit for tat.
my Pacific Fleet is coming along nicely. i've added a few more Tarawa-class carrier/transport. i love that high mvmt rate (7 or 8 iirc).
Attachments
I_batman
Emperor
El Justo said:
Hi Guys: Been very hectic at work, plus prepping for moving this weekend, plus a balky internet connection have kept me out of my required thread reading last couple days.
Want to add my two cents about the WP units, but won't be much time until next week.
Definitely have to make it more inviting to build Frogfoot's. Right now, a Backfire cost 700 shields and a FrogFoot 600. Backfire is 5 times as effective, in my opinion, so something has to be done for that unit. Same for the Yak's.
Will detail more next week. One thought: The Frogfoot was a tank-killer on par with the Warthog. I would like to see it as a very short range unit, with lethal bombardment.
Also, in my game play, Flanker's make short work of the F-111's when the F-111's bomb. I would say that if the A.I. U.S. flies 8 sorties of F-111's in a turn (which is very common), they have 5 shot down, WP loses 1 intercepting Flanker, and 2 F-111's actually drop their payload.
I have played the WP quite a bit, at higher levels, and one game at Monarch.
Found the WP too easy to play at Monarch.
Also, I found that I ended up wiping out Spain, France, Italy, and Greece before finishing off WG. Now, that may just be my style of play, but I found that once WG was down to 2 cities from the original 6, they stayed put in those two cities, and added mech infantry.
El Justo
Deity
good news on the TCW update front
vingrjoe seems to be filling in the TCW unit checklist for those that use alternative gfx.
WP enthusiasts will be happy to know that the Sverdlov-class cruiser is next on Sir Vingrjoe's to-do list.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=115819
vingrjoe seems to be filling in the TCW unit checklist for those that use alternative gfx.
WP enthusiasts will be happy to know that the Sverdlov-class cruiser is next on Sir Vingrjoe's to-do list.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=115819
Blackbird_SR-71
Spying from 85,000 ft
I"m going to post an update on my Caracas Campaign later on so stay tune.
Well, as my game as the "blue wave" (much like the WP is the big red machine, the NA-US is the blue wave) continues, I am really convinced major revisioning is needed as I am just hammering the commies and this is on Emperior as well.
It is the Fall of 1967. Moscow has fallen. So has Manchuria and much of Soviet Siberia, including Vladivostok. The only thing left from Moscow to the south and west of the Urals is Gorkiy and Syktyvkar. (Gorkiy should go this next turn). My European allies have been slugging it out in the northern part of the theater, but have not broken through yet although it looks like Berlin is on the verge of falling. They have managed to take Dresden, but lost Helsinki.
Elsewhere, in order to stop the air attacks, NA has invaded the SA continent and has a foot hold, although resistance is stiff. I find myself sending more units down here than I want to and resistance seems to be a lot harder here than in the WP, although SA does not have another position beating on them. All is quiet in Africa and there have been no other cities exchange hands anyplace else.
The thing that is really interesting in this game is that I have yet to get a GL, yet have gotten two science GL, so go figure. I am doing all this with no corps at all.
Will maybe post a screen shot later.
It is the Fall of 1967. Moscow has fallen. So has Manchuria and much of Soviet Siberia, including Vladivostok. The only thing left from Moscow to the south and west of the Urals is Gorkiy and Syktyvkar. (Gorkiy should go this next turn). My European allies have been slugging it out in the northern part of the theater, but have not broken through yet although it looks like Berlin is on the verge of falling. They have managed to take Dresden, but lost Helsinki.
Elsewhere, in order to stop the air attacks, NA has invaded the SA continent and has a foot hold, although resistance is stiff. I find myself sending more units down here than I want to and resistance seems to be a lot harder here than in the WP, although SA does not have another position beating on them. All is quiet in Africa and there have been no other cities exchange hands anyplace else.
The thing that is really interesting in this game is that I have yet to get a GL, yet have gotten two science GL, so go figure. I am doing all this with no corps at all.
Will maybe post a screen shot later.
El Justo
Deity
Klyden,
i'm trying to think of a way to balance the game out at the mid-level difficulties.
has the AI launched concerted counter-attacks at the levels you've played? i mean, has WP thrown at you what i've seen at the higher levels? i've faced a half dozen worthy multi-pronged counter-attacks by WP in eastern europe just in the last 5 turns or so declared war.
i'm trying to think of a way to balance the game out at the mid-level difficulties.
has the AI launched concerted counter-attacks at the levels you've played? i mean, has WP thrown at you what i've seen at the higher levels? i've faced a half dozen worthy multi-pronged counter-attacks by WP in eastern europe just in the last 5 turns or so declared war.
El Justo
Deity
it should be interesting; especially compared w/ Klyden's adventures down south.Blackbird_SR-71 said:
JG99_Korab
King
I think that one thing is unrealistic. In my game all the civs switched to democracy. What the heck. Why are the communists a democracy? and the arabs?
The only place there really has been stiff resistance (as far as counter attacks, etc) is in South America. I landed at a city and had about 40 BTR, T55, T62 units show up as the welcome wagon. The other thing that SA has been building is just tons of planes. My guys in the Carribean are aces several times over and it reminds me of the Mariana's turkey shoot, but it has also been a maddening distraction that I have had to send troops to take care of when I could have sent them to Europe or Asia.
The Arabs have done nothing to me except for some air strikes. The WP has never launched any sizeable counter attack and I think part of it has been due to the fact that they and the Euro's have just been slugging it out non-stop. The Chinese have never gotten going with anything at all, be it air, troops or whatever, so I don't know what the story is there. I did disrupt their rail net in a few spots early and have tried to keep it broken, but I can't believe it has been this effective.
I have played the WP a lot and its hard going, but usually you can grind forward against the AI. Against another human, that is another matter.
I agree with JG99; need to check on the governments for the Commies and make sure they can't use democracy. If they have been, then that means balance is off further because in game terms, commie goverment is not as good as democracy.
The Arabs have done nothing to me except for some air strikes. The WP has never launched any sizeable counter attack and I think part of it has been due to the fact that they and the Euro's have just been slugging it out non-stop. The Chinese have never gotten going with anything at all, be it air, troops or whatever, so I don't know what the story is there. I did disrupt their rail net in a few spots early and have tried to keep it broken, but I can't believe it has been this effective.
I have played the WP a lot and its hard going, but usually you can grind forward against the AI. Against another human, that is another matter.
I agree with JG99; need to check on the governments for the Commies and make sure they can't use democracy. If they have been, then that means balance is off further because in game terms, commie goverment is not as good as democracy.
clabauterman
Shipping Ghost
Is there something wrong with the download limit? I've tried for several days, but it doesn't seem to work.
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