TSG 245 After Actions Thread

[Nizef]

In this thread you can post the results of your game. Please state your victory/loss date (preferably in the post title) and describe your path to glory in this post! Players are encouraged to provide feedback on the game.

- Did you play peacefully or warlike? Did you use your UU?
- What technologies did you prioritize?
- What Social Policies did you choose and in what order? Which Ideology did you choose?
- How many cities did you have in the end and where did you settle them?

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

Domination victory T402. Man, that was a long game! It turned out we did indeed need astronomy, so my 4-city tradition play bore some fruit, I would say. In fact, the astronomy timing is probably the determining factor in this game. In my game, I did not clear my own continent particularly quickly: I built 4 cities first (after my failed attempt on Vienna), and when I finally did get the wars going I went Vienna - Paris - Amsterdam - Rio - Athens - London - Bejing, which fell on turn 300. Then, it was waiting to hit astronomy, which I did turn 363.

My plan was to scout with a caravel, but the trireme that I had bought from Paris earlier was killed by barbarians, and anyway by this stage of the game I was more or less out of gold. I had city connections between my four cities and London, but that was not enough to offset the increasing building costs. So, I embarked my army and sailed it in its entirety east from Beijing, convinced I would find the remaining AI there. It turned out I should have sailed south instead, and had to backtrack until I finally found the Mongolian city of Melbourne. Mongolia had a couple of swords but no Keshiks fortunately, otherwise my semi-amphibious attack might have been harder. When Karakorum fell, it was onto Rome. I did get a nasty scare here, when a composite bowman (I had machinery now, but not enough gold to upgrade them all) was killed by a lancer! When I came to my senses I checked the diplomacy screen and verified that Augustus was in fact still in medieval, so that upgraded pikeman was the only resistance Rome could offer.

The marathon experience was an interesting one, although not likely one I will repeat very soon I had read that building costs are tripled for marathon, but somehow it felt like the costs were as much as 5 to 10 times as high, with building times of a colosseum as much as 50 turns. Also, repairing pillaged luxuries takes 8 turns, and improving a luxury more than 20 (perhaps this is an argument for Liberty). So, when a barbarian horseman pillages your luxury and you just conquered a city, it takes forever to dig yourself out of the happiness hole. About the building times, though, perhaps the land just was not very good, or my sim wasn't.

For this game I went tradition and then honor, but I should have picked honor right away, as that would have gained me a bunch of culture, and also made my game much easier. Having notifications where barb camps spawn, and getting a combat bonus against them was very helpful. For my religion, I took religious community and temple happiness, but the latter was a mistake. I had some faith to buy buildings (earth mother), but not the time in the production queues to build temples.


- Did you play peacefully or warlike? Did you use your UU?
I just missed out on Panzers

 

[sebtanic]

Won turn 365.

Actually the conquering of capitals on our own continent wasn't all that time critical; what mattered more was reaching Astronomy and subsequently finding the two unknown civilizations.

I got Education with the help of a natural GS in turn 312. That was one turn after conquering the last capital on the home continent (Paris). That same turn, I bought a university in Berlin. 3 turns later, when I had enough money, I got another university in Hamburg. Which was my only expo.
I reached Compass turn 325, built Oxford with a GE I got from the Liberty finisher a few turns before, and took Astronomy as a free tech. My armies embarked east and west from the home continent, but only found small island populated with huge barbarian tribes. We found a continent to the south, and finally met our last two contenders: Mongols in turn 343, and Rome conveniently situated right next to the Mongolian capital, in turn 345.

My armies converged from all sides first upon Rome, then marched on to Karakorum. They were met with stiff resistance, but by then I had Composite Bows promoted with Range and Logistics. I also had a truckload of Spearmen and Horsemen, so once all my units were in place, the enemies' fate was sealed. Only 20 turns after finding our last two rivals, Germany ruled the world.

I took the capitals in the following order:

t140 London
t169 Beijing
t199 Vienna
t217 Amsterdam (Stonehenge)
t236 Rio de Janeiro (Temple of Artemis)
t258 Athens
t311 Paris
t357 Rome (GLH, Mausoleum, Pyramids)
t365 Karakorum

Notes taken during the game (for simplicity, I'm repeating here the notes already posted in the Opening Actions Thread)

t30 Pantheon: Monument to the Gods
t113 GL (Philosophy)
t123 settled Hamburg (Mt Kailash)
t167 NC
t210 Oracle
t218 Religion: Tithe, extra Production
t225 Military Tradition
t232 lost Pyramids to far away land
t279 Enhanced: Peace Gardens, It. Preachers
t304 Chichen Itza (2 turns before a GA)
t306 30 turn GA
t312 Education (with help of a GS)
bought Uni in Berlin
t315 bought Uni in Hamburg
t325 Compass
built Oxford with GE from Liberty finisher
free tech: Astronomy
t343 met Mongols
t345 met Rome
t365 won

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

I got Education with the help of a natural GS in turn 312

Ah, I missed Great Library to Rome, I hadn't realized its significance at the time. On my continent, only Beijing was attempting it, and I had declared war and stood on some of her tiles, so I was confident I would beat her to it, but of course I had no vision on faraway lands.

Good play on using the Oxford, it never occurred to me, though it also would have been very tough with my four tradition cities all needing to complete the universities, and I didn't have a Liberty finisher either. I had also annexed most of the AI capitals, but of course I needn't have if I had been planning Oxford.

 

[sebtanic]

Ah, I missed Great Library to Rome, I hadn't realized its significance at the time. On my continent, only Beijing was attempting it, and I had declared war and stood on some of her tiles, so I was confident I would beat her to it, but of course I had no vision on faraway lands.

Good play on using the Oxford, it never occurred to me, though it also would have been very tough with my four tradition cities all needing to complete the universities, and I didn't have a Liberty finisher either. I had also annexed most of the AI capitals, but of course I needn't have if I had been planning Oxford.

Yeah, I waited to annex London until I had Oxford. All the other capitals I left as puppets, but London was where I was going to build Caravales. In the end, once the Caravel was finally ready, my embarked units had already found the other continent.

In hindsight, I should have bought the Caravel. Much more effective, especially on Marathon. But money was scarce at the time.

 

[Rhodro]

I just won at turn 408. My conclusion is the same as the others. Astronomy is key.
I like sebtanic's play with the Great Library, GS and Oxford. Great play.
I did have funny compbows at the end. At lvl 12 they have all the promotions they can have.

Agree on the speed, repairing and improving tiles really heavy.
Also sad I got a lot of ruins but only 1 of them upgraded a scout to archer.

 

[Megalou]

I got Education with the help of a natural GS in turn 312. That was one turn after conquering the last capital on the home continent (Paris). That same turn, I bought a university in Berlin. 3 turns later, when I had enough money, I got another university in Hamburg. Which was my only expo.

Well planned getting the GS before the free GE increased the cost! Didn't not annexing weigh down on your happiness? I used double citadels to connect truffles near Amsterdam, built courthouses, colosseums, etc., and still barely kept happiness above zero.

Turn 376 win here.
Most of the actual playing time was spent roaming with lone military units, looking for new camps, and chopping forests. Camps were necessary to avoid deficit, which I managed to do until the very turn I learned Astronomy. I then had deficit for two turns more before I saw the problem - the game seems to have become much stricter about disbanding military, which used to be an empty threat - sold off an aqueduct, etc.

Camp yields
brute: 10
archer: 8
spear: 7
sword: 3
horse: 5
cb: 1
pike: 2
axe: 8
Seventy-five Gold: 31 (41%)
Total Military: 44 (59%) I thought the figures would be closer to 33%-67% but they were not abnormal.

Some Key dates after turn 197
218 - Paris puppeted. But has library.
221 - Vienna puppeted. I eventually annexed all the home continent capitals except Rio, which didn't have any forests to boost a Courthouse build. London (Pyramids, Writers' Guild) and Beijing (Parthenon, Petra, Artemis) were mildly useful. (Berlin eventually had 6 great wonders.)
t234 Liberty tree complete. 20 turn golden age. Free GE, hurried National College (34 turns, 1075 hammers. Science goes from 54 to 69.
235 3rd great general. He will converge with the army near Brazil while his brethren build citadels to reach some truffles.
239 Unmet player lost capital. I was never to meet them.
266 - Enhance religion. Choosing between Pagodas and Swords into plowshares, I chose Pagodas. Sure, there would be some peace time to grow before we meet the other civ(s) but happiness seemed a bigger issue. Not sure that was right, because I only got 3 pagodas and spent 51 turns in peace before astronomy. I also picked Holy Order, cheaper missionaries.
267 - Built Great Wall! I didn't want a far away land to get it. This was apparently the only wonder I had never built before, because I got this Steam award:

297 - The last home continent civ, Greece, is eliminated.
348 - Astronomy. I wanted to press on to Navigation, but it was grotesquely expensive and turned out to be ultimately useless too. Like for The Black Vegetable it took time to find the last civs. I found the barb-infested island pretty fast with some stray units, but they could not survive. The mini-map shows quite a few tracks in the water(!).

My dream for a marathon Germany game is to somehow get a hand axe upgraded to a knight thousands of years early

I had one shot at that on the barbarian island, but got 60 culture instead. I also had a shot with a horseman but got population increase. That wasn't super early either, obviously.
363 - Met Mongolia.
370 - Captured Rome, which was governed by the Mongols.
376 - Captured Karakorum.

Edit: I kept two Greek expos, one because of 2 luxes and the other one because of Great Lighthouse.

 

[sebtanic]

Well planned getting the GS before the free GE increased the cost! Didn't not annexing weigh down on your happiness? I used double citadels to connect truffles near Amsterdam, built courthouses, colosseums, etc., and still barely kept happiness above zero.

My happinesse was close to zero much of the time. But my understanding is that a puppeted city generates as much unhappiness as an annexed city with a courthouse, is that not correct?

I didn't think of using GGs to connect luxes, nice way of putting them to use. I sent mine to the front in case someone had Great Wall, but most of them weren't needed ever.

 

[Megalou]

My happinesse was close to zero much of the time. But my understanding is that a puppeted city generates as much unhappiness as an annexed city with a courthouse, is that not correct?

I didn't think of using GGs to connect luxes, nice way of putting them to use. I sent mine to the front in case someone had Great Wall, but most of them weren't needed ever.

Interesting. But I don’t think that’s true off the top of my head. An annexed city with a corthouse doesn’t generate more unhappiness than a normal native town, does it?

 

[sebtanic]

Interesting. But I don’t think that’s true off the top of my head.

Citizens in Occupied Cities (any City acquired through Trade Deals or Peace Treaties that is Annexed without a Courthouse) will produce 1.33 Unhappiness per Citizen. Building a Courthouse will make the Unhappiness go back to that of a normal City. Puppet Cities are not Occupied, though Cities you Raze do count as Occupied until they are completely burned down.
(source)

An annexed city with a corthouse doesn’t generate more unhappiness than a normal native town, does it?

No it doesn't. But neither does a puppeted city.

 

[Megalou]

Citizens in Occupied Cities (any City acquired through Trade Deals or Peace Treaties that is Annexed without a Courthouse) will produce 1.33 Unhappiness per Citizen. Building a Courthouse will make the Unhappiness go back to that of a normal City. Puppet Cities are not Occupied, though Cities you Raze do count as Occupied until they are completely burned down.
(source)


No it doesn't. But neither does a puppeted city.

Thanks, that's really so basic that it's puzzling why I didn't know it before. Before we click annex, puppet or raze, the happiness goes up if there are happiness buildings, happiness wonders or connected luxuries. Maybe that's what's thrown me off the track.

 

[lerrocco]

sorry, can you confirm for me. I have never puppeted a city as I thought it would produce more unhappiness. I either raze or build a courthouse (when I can).
Is this true? does a puppet city produce unhappiness in your empire? Even if its the same as a city you built, is that still a penalty?

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

A puppeted city produces the same unhappiness as a normal city, so three for the city, and one for each population. There is no extra unhappiness for it being puppeted. In addition, a puppeted city does increase your science cost the way a normal city does (as well as the cost of national wonders - which holds for all cities I believe, including ones that you are razing), but it does not increase the cost of your social policies. Finally science and culture output of a puppeted city is reduced by 25%.

So for me, since I care more about the science cost than the social policy cost, I typically annex a puppeted city as quickly as I can, and raze all cities that I do not intend to keep.

 

[Megalou]

I typically annex a puppeted city as quickly as I can

Yes, that is my style too (even though in TSG 245 one should have done as sebtanic). But I usually puppet first and annex when the time of resistence is over, because while in resistance, the city doesn't produce anything but food and unhappiness regardless. Or am I once again missing something?

 

[sebtanic]

Knowing the map now, I wonder if we could have started conquering much later, to keep science cost from number of cities down for as long as possible. Maybe wait until we have enough units for 2 armies with 4 comp bows each and a couple of brutes or spears to use as meat shields. Then quickly puppet all the capitals, rush Astronomy and kill the last two civs. Of course any result from a re-run would be heavily slanted because now we know where to look for the other continent...

 

[lerrocco]

Thank you. Sorry @Nizef to gatecrash a game I am not active in, but I do follow and I know you are friendly bunch. If I do play these games later it is not to cheat or gain advantage. I play my game my way. I like to think I am not influenced by what I see here.

I never considered the puppet to Annex. Eek.. 1 last newbie question and I will bow out. Can you still raze a puppeted city., if it qualifies for razing?

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

I never considered the puppet to Annex. Eek.. 1 last newbie question and I will bow out. Can you still raze a puppeted city., if it qualifies for razing?

Yes, you can still raze it at any time. What I sometimes do is to temporarily puppet a city to be able to general into the next AI city (like the capital), and then start razing it in time for it to be gone when I take the next city, so my city count, and therefore my science cost do not exceed my original cities plus the new AI capital.

But I usually puppet first and annex when the time of resistence is over, because while in resistance, the city doesn't produce anything but food and unhappiness regardless. Or am I once again missing something?

Indeed, that's what I meant, although I believe there is one exception. In Order there is a tenet that gives you a free courthouse when capturing a city, although I believe you only get the courthouse in case you annex directly on capturing. I'm not 100% sure about that, though, since I have not done Order for a while.

 

[Bemep42]

The courthouse appears as soon as you capture the city and immediately reduces unhappy. You do not need to annex the city. You can see it in my final save from BOTM243 https://gotm.civfanatics.net/results/tsg.php?game=243[/text]

EDIT: My prewious message turned out to be wrong. I just checked, it looks like you need to annex the city right away so that the free courthouse remains in it !
after you make the city a puppet, the free court disappears and after the annexation of the city it needs to be built anew!!!

 

[fiddlesticks]

Domination win turn 344

The Capital went London, Beijing, Athens/Vienna around the same time, Rio/Amsterdam around the same time, Paris just before Astronomy, then Rome and Karakorum after slogging through a barbarian kingdom on the west of the Rome/Mongolia Continent. I had 3-4 shot at a cool upgrade but none of them panned out, though they didn't really matter at that point because a few range/logistics CB's and a motley crew of other barb converts were plenty to sack Rome (previously occupied by the Mongols) and Karakorum.

Opening honour first was a great choice here providing a lot of gold, culture and units.

After that, full tradition and a rush to develop science and get to Astronomy. London failed at wonders twice by 1-5 turns.

 

[fiddlesticks]

I just missed out on Panzers

Haha