Soldiers from that division were buried in Russia this Sunday.
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/society/64975.html
(The article is in Russian, sorry. But GT does a reasonable job).
So, still ridiculous?
Ukraine Crisis News Thread
- Thread starter ReindeerThistle
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http://www.novayagazeta.ru/society/64975.html
(The article is in Russian, sorry. But GT does a reasonable job).
So, still ridiculous?
Nothing going on in Ukraine is ridiculous.
If they send regular troops there before they acknowledged LNR/DNR, it is of course wrong, no doubt about it. It should have been done in reverse order.
Doesn't change my position about the overall situation in Ukraine anyway though. They still have unconstitutional government which still has no legal grounds to give the military unconstitutional orders to wage war on their own population and the military men obeying unconstitutional orders are still criminals under their own laws.
If they send regular troops there before they acknowledged LNR/DNR, it is of course wrong, no doubt about it. It should have been done in reverse order.
Doesn't change my position about the overall situation in Ukraine anyway though. They still have unconstitutional government which still has no legal grounds to give the military unconstitutional orders to wage war on their own population and the military men obeying unconstitutional orders are still criminals under their own laws.
Verbose
Deity
What has been largely ignored and left undebated is poor performance of rebels and Russia troops (yes, Russia is defacto war with Ukraine now) and how well Ukrainian army has answered on this challenge.
I fully expected that rebels would quickly defeat Ukrainian army and take what suits for them but instead they are holed in cities like Germans during last moments of WW2. Few days ago rebels made a surprise attack on south and tried to conquer Mariupol. After first shock invasion failed and now I think how long rebel-Russians can wage this war.
Ukrainian army before this conflict sounded like a joke but has performed over all exceptions. Instead of collapsing because of corruption and mismanagement UA first routed rebels and now is holding her positions despite all Russian aggressions. For Ukrainians this is their war of independence, if they fail Ukraina will be sliced like a banana.
Rebels and Russians combat performance has been really weak. I would assume that Russia would simply steamroll over Ukrainians but this has not happened. Maybe despite all hate campaign against Ukrainians Putin finds very few soldiers and men are ready to go against their old little brother. Also Russia is utterly corrupted and not many finds this conflict to suit their intrest, Putin is single benefictor of this so he may have difficult time with his vassals.
Some maps how situation has been development:
https://twitter.com/FPWatcher
I fully expected that rebels would quickly defeat Ukrainian army and take what suits for them but instead they are holed in cities like Germans during last moments of WW2. Few days ago rebels made a surprise attack on south and tried to conquer Mariupol. After first shock invasion failed and now I think how long rebel-Russians can wage this war.
Ukrainian army before this conflict sounded like a joke but has performed over all exceptions. Instead of collapsing because of corruption and mismanagement UA first routed rebels and now is holding her positions despite all Russian aggressions. For Ukrainians this is their war of independence, if they fail Ukraina will be sliced like a banana.
Rebels and Russians combat performance has been really weak. I would assume that Russia would simply steamroll over Ukrainians but this has not happened. Maybe despite all hate campaign against Ukrainians Putin finds very few soldiers and men are ready to go against their old little brother. Also Russia is utterly corrupted and not many finds this conflict to suit their intrest, Putin is single benefictor of this so he may have difficult time with his vassals.
Some maps how situation has been development:
https://twitter.com/FPWatcher
LamaGT
Emperor
Are you joking? Are you seriously saying that after they failed to take Slavyansk from a few hundred armed men, and conducted a siege lasting months with regular artillery strikes, that the Ukrainian army performed well? Even then the only reason they "liberated" Slavyansk was because the rebels retreated. You really have a 30 seconds memory.
You're right in saying that now that the Russians have upped the support they will be steamrolled.
Probably so. By today's news, Ukraine has lost control of 7 settlements around Novoazovsk, where Russia has opened another front.
That would be a bit strange. In mid-June, for instance, when rebels showed 3 (three) tanks in their possession, it was a big scandal. They were outnumbered in tanks and artillery by about 1:100, and in manpower 1:5-10. Now, when disparity reduced and Ukrainian army has only several times more tanks, rebels started offensive operation, and it is going well so far. Yeah, this is how brilliant performance of Ukrainian army looks like
You mean, Ukrainian army chewing them for months using every weapons system available including prohibited ones and every man around including 3 waves of mobilization let alone foreign hired guns and still being unable to swallow? Well, if that's the best they can...
Besides, the reports referenced don't put it as if the area was crawling with Russians like in WW2. Even if (Novaya Gazeta is not an exceptionally reliable source actually for they have a track record of being good at making sensations out of thin air) there were some regular troops sent in, it's not like Ukrainian army faced Russian army full-scale.
Why would you expect that? They are rebels after all. Some of them with police or military experience, of course, but there definitely was poor organization and poor communication between them. And besides they were outmanned and outgunned. No surprise they were drawn back facing regular Ukrainian military.
I thought I saw people here surprised at the fact the rebels are still standing, and it was explained with Russian support.
So would I. This only means that Russia hasn't actually started yet. Hope it also won't.
Maybe. But I heard that Russian nationalist organizations complained about FSB preventing them from going to Ukraine in the numbers they would have liked to. And it seems like a more likely explanation.
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EDIT: There's a saying in Russia, which can be translated like "It's better to actually be a
Ukrainians have claimed they are fighting Russian military for so long and everyone seems to have believed them so much, that Russians could have decided that it won't hurt their reputation after all to actually send troops in just to make Ukrainian claims true.
Just a wild thought, don't take it too seriously.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Ukrainian army at the beginning of the war seemed in utter shambles; however, it has gradually gathered combat experience and prowess as the conflict unfolded. I bet the rebels and their Russian puppet masters weren't counting on that...
So have the rebels.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Verbose
Deity
Probably not. Even sources not sympathetic to the separatists back in April indicated that Ukraine might have had as few as 6000 combat ready troops to try to oppose the armed separatists descending on government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk. Since the Ukranian army had sat stock still and allowed itself to be taken prisoner by the thousands down in the Crimea, the expectation was that Ukraine effectively had no armed forces. There were US posters on this board who were seriously condescending about Ukraine, and indicating how a rubbish country like that, unable to stand up for itself, simply did not deserve aid. And the US government hasn't sent any, since it was that questionable if the Ukranians even when aided would be able to do anything useful.
By that standard, the Ukranians have done rather well. But memories are apparently short. Lots more fight in Ukraine than anyone expected, apparently the Russians not least.
Then again, considering what an upset the Maidan movement was, quite possibly everyone should have been warned? Might be time to start taking Ukraine a bit more seriously? If it gets out of the current situation, and out from under Russia, it might be interesting what the Ukranians end up doing to the place themselves. Because if they do, it will have been done in direct defiance of Russia, and without any significant help from either the US or EU. The Ukranians are quite clear on that point. We, the westerners are not gaining popularity points with them due to all the possible help that has not been forthcoming. And Ukraine down the line is unlikely to let anyone forget this.
The size of the problem facing the Russians now might in fact be due to them being so successful in Crimea, it bred a bit more contempt for Ukraine than was really warranted. It was too easy, and the Russian government got overconfident.
Because back in April this was what the situation looked like:
Not all that different from today. But...
The really significant bit back in April however probably wasn't which government buildings were successfully occupied, but where that kind of take-over and a full-scale uprising did NOT materialise:
Kharkiv and Odessa and everything inbetween did not end up like Luhansk and Donetsk, and that matters a great deal by now.
Looks like I hit the spot. Russian steam engine rolled over me immeaditely.
UA has not collapsed and they have forced rebels to retreat. Rebels also have has some leadership confusion and changes on top, not UA. Rebels are in trouble, not UA. Rebels also have direct Russian support, despite it results have been poor.
Maps are biased depending who makes them. What is sure is that rebels are holed up in their cities. UA troops maybe are surrounded ot not, if they are then UA front will likely collapse and results will be immeaditely. UA also gains weapons from west but there are close to zero reports of amount and quality. All is speculation.
I expected UA to lose and collapse. Im speaking purely of military perspective and being able to resist indirect Russia is no a small achievement.
Because wars should be quick and decisive. Not like a long bloody struggle. This is basic war knowledge. There can be not many benefictors from this conflict. I fully expected rebels and Russia quickly to gain what they wanted but now Russian efforts simply look clumsy and confused. Fully support or not?
This pretty much... If you wage war it should be quick and decisive like Sun Zu said in ancient China. Putin is professional and so are his vassals, so why to make such a half-hearted effort in Ukraine?
UA has not collapsed and they have forced rebels to retreat. Rebels also have has some leadership confusion and changes on top, not UA. Rebels are in trouble, not UA. Rebels also have direct Russian support, despite it results have been poor.
That would be a bit strange. In mid-June, for instance, when rebels showed 3 (three) tanks in their possession, it was a big scandal. They were outnumbered in tanks and artillery by about 1:100, and in manpower 1:5-10. Now, when disparity reduced and Ukrainian army has only several times more tanks, rebels started offensive operation, and it is going well so far. Yeah, this is how brilliant performance of Ukrainian army looks like
Maps are biased depending who makes them. What is sure is that rebels are holed up in their cities. UA troops maybe are surrounded ot not, if they are then UA front will likely collapse and results will be immeaditely. UA also gains weapons from west but there are close to zero reports of amount and quality. All is speculation.
I expected UA to lose and collapse. Im speaking purely of military perspective and being able to resist indirect Russia is no a small achievement.
Because wars should be quick and decisive. Not like a long bloody struggle. This is basic war knowledge. There can be not many benefictors from this conflict. I fully expected rebels and Russia quickly to gain what they wanted but now Russian efforts simply look clumsy and confused. Fully support or not?
This pretty much... If you wage war it should be quick and decisive like Sun Zu said in ancient China. Putin is professional and so are his vassals, so why to make such a half-hearted effort in Ukraine?
Winner
Diverse in Unity
The separatist failure in Kharkiv is an especially loud slap in the face of the "Novorossija" advocates...
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