UN discussion: BABE's resignation, part 2

[donsig]

From the turn tracker thread:

That is just the thing. I have no intention of restarting the attacks on you guys. I just need the warhappiness to avoid having to readjust everything in the realm. And you don't suffer anything from it unless you start losing stuff so as long as we have a phony war, I will continue. Should hostilities (apart from the odd ship attack which is the only joy I have presently) restart I will have to drop this game. When we talked about what would happen should we drop, the problem was what to do with our current holdings. I agreed to continue but to keep a very low profile in game. So for what it is worth try focussing on the other teams.

I now make the following suggestion: The first team to remove another team from the game will inherit all BABE lands! what about that as a christmas gift. That is probably something to look forward to in time for christmas of 2009.

That is not a good proposal since it will not happen before you lose interest in this game Wotan. If you don't want to play any longer and if no one else on your team wants to play then perhaps you should consider retiring. I don't have much multi-player experience but I've heard that retiring will simply make all BABE cities and units go away. Not as good a solution as having an active BABE opponent but better than having a shadow BABE team. I appreciate your willingness to keep the ball rolling but the slow pace is killing the game for many of us now anyway.

If BABE retires would we allow transfers to other teams (similar to last games refugees) for any BABES that wanted to continue being active in the game?

 

[Paul#42]

good idea to discuss that.

 

[peter grimes]

I'm torn on the idea of accepting refugees - unless they are not able to directly play Babe's save. Otherwise, any Babes who want to continue in this game should do so from their own team.

But I imagine there aren't many Babes still around, in any case.

More pressing - what to do with Babe's towns and lands? We could declare Babe's home continent off limits to settlers (but not other units), or we could establish a nature preserve: no humans allowed under any circumstances.

Or we could just call it a 'newly discovered' landmass that is ready to be colonized.

Are any of these feasible? Are there better ideas?

 

[ThERat]

If BABE retires would we allow transfers to other teams (similar to last games refugees) for any BABES that wanted to continue being active in the game?

I doubt there is any player in the first place still active. Wotan is playing pretty much a solo game

 

[General_W]

I agree that retirement is probably the best of a list of bad options.

As most teams are probably aware, this current “phony war” has cost The Council several cities and some of our former territory.
I don’t think I’m revealing any strategy to say that at some point we plan to try to recapture that land. I’ll also venture a guess that Saber will try the same thing as soon as they get opportunity.

I think it’s both unfair and unrealistic to hold the game hostage to prevent anyone from attacking you.

Wotan – I appreciate the fact that you’ve soldiered on this long – but if it’s your intention to quit just as soon as this game heats up, then why not just do it now?

Let’s hammer out an agreement between the 4 remaining teams about how we want to handle the transition – and then finally release Wotan from his chains. It’ll be a Christmas present from the MTDG

I vote: BABE retires, and their mainland is declared the lost land of Atlantis and never open for settlement.

Or I’d be ok with allowing settlement under some kind of terms that allow each team an equal shot.

Just speaking for myself, not The Council.

 

[dutchfire]

To be honest, Babe just quiting and leaving their lands up for grabs for anyone who happens to sail along would be totally unacceptable for me. This would give such a huge advantage to the team that manages to get there first, that it would make all actions until now basically meaningless. The impact of having an entire extra continent for one team would simply ruin the game, in my opinion. IF, and only if, team Babe retires, I think the entire main continent should be declared a no-go area, and their smaller islands should go to the nearest team. But for now, I'm fine with Wotan playing the game, even if it does take some time every now and then.

 

[denyd]

We could allow each tribe to found one coastal city each on Babe's island. Restrict units on that island to workers only. Each tribe may claim only one of each luxury/resource. That would prevent the unbalancing land rush, while keeping the resources in play.

 

[General_W]

That's an interesting proposal Denyd.

So, depending on where each team put their coastal city - they might just have to use the worker-->colony to claim a new resource?

I kinda like that!

What if there's not enough of a given resource on BABE's mainland for all 4 teams to get one each? Should it just be totally off-limits then? Seems unlikely to be a problem either way. Hopefully Rik didn't just put 2 sources of rubber in the world... and both on BABE's mainland!

 

[Chamnix]

I hate to be a wet blanket – there are some interesting ideas here, but resignation by Babe raises more issues than just leaving 1 major island empty.

I think the main problem is that alliances have been formed and built up over the game so far. Some teams may have been counting on Babe to provide luxuries or lots of techs at some point in the game, while others wouldn’t be trading with Babe anyway. How can we possibly compensate Babe’s allies for the sudden disappearance of their friend?

I’m sure there will be other problems no matter what happens to Babe’s lands. We Saberites may not have been sailing fancy boats all over the world as long as some teams have, but our cartographers have made some educated guesses about what the world looks like. Presumably, Babe’s homeland has 2 luxuries – some teams probably already have 1 of those luxuries while others lack both. Some teams’ luxuries will suddenly be worth more than others.

What about other islands? I’m guessing there is a smallish island that only Babe could reach pre-Astronomy and some 1-tile islands near Babe – do we do the same with those as with Babe’s homeland? While resources are fairly distributed, I think it is probably well-known that continents lack some resources which can be found on certain smallish islands. Whether Babe’s minor islands are removed or settled will benefit some teams more than others and could hurt one or two teams severely depending on where the future resources are placed, and we won’t even know until we play another 50+ turns.

I don’t have any good answers. Any solution will be unfair, but the game has really been somewhat unbalanced anyway since Babe essentially stopped trying.

 

[General_W]

Thank you Mr. Wet Blanket

I think you hit the nail on the head right here:

I don’t have any good answers. Any solution will be unfair, but the game has really been somewhat unbalanced anyway since Babe essentially stopped trying.

Yes BABE resigning would mess up the whole diplomatic structure – and a host of other things – but I don't know about everyone else, but our diplomatic overtures have pretty much been met with a "gone fishing" notice anyway.

To me, the fact that a solution will never be 100% fair isn't a deterrent from doing the best we can – as the current situation is far from fair anyway.

While I'm not speaking officially for my team – I am pretty confident that we will not agree to be held hostage to a non-aggression pact with the team that has contributed heavily to the "Put The Council in Last Place" fund.

The day will come when someone attacks BABE – and then we'll be forced to come up with a solution if we want to keep the game moving.
IMHO – we might as well try to hammer out the best solution we can now – so we can either implement it asap – or at least have it ready to go on that distant day of infamy.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Another idea would be anti-refugees. 1 pr 2 people from each team joins Team BABE and vows never to talk about what their old team was planning to do.

That's probably the worst idea out there, of course.

 

[Chamnix]

To me, the fact that a solution will never be 100% fair isn't a deterrent from doing the best we can – as the current situation is far from fair anyway.

The problem isn't that any solution won't be 100% fair, it's that I think any solution will be horribly unfair (and I agree that the game already is unfair).

So far it's been generally Saberians and Councillors in this thread - I'd be interested in hearing if GONGers think that this game is worth continuing for them if Babe disappears - if they don't have a problem with it, then I'll shut up and mind my own business (for a little while... ).

 

[General_W]

You're right - GONG is likely to be the most adversely affected by a BABE withdrawal. Perhaps part of our solution can be to find a way to help compensate them? Maybe they get an enhanced share of BABE's former lands?

No matter what – we should all bear in mind – we WILL need a solution when Wotan quits when hostilities begin against BABE… and the hostilities will begin at some point.

Either we work out a solution, or the game ends when the first team attacks BABE and Wotan throws in the towel.

Auto-Teller's idea about the "anti-refugees" is interesting – but it's hard to see how that works very well. No matter who ends up running BABE, no matter what the new BABE team does it will almost certainly be either A) horribly biased, or B) perceived as horribly biased. Unless we can find some new person to come in and take over?

BABE really isn't that bad off from where I'm sitting. They've had some setbacks, but not more than one other team that was forced to spam out units during the critical build phase, or the other team that lost cities, land, and had to build a bunch of units and is still just recovering from War Weariness.
Maybe we can find someone willing to take on the challenge?

If not – let's get some GONG input on how we might be able to make things slightly more fair for them when Wotan eventually quits.

 

[Cyc]

Just a personal note. I think we should let BABE retire.

Once this happens, we should form a 4 man advisory board. 1 person from each team comes together in a new thread to discuss the event and the aftermath. Several screenshots of all BABe lands (even those close to BABEland that may not have been settled) would be posted publicly. Discussions among the teams would ensue. An equal division of land (to include islands) would be agreed upon by the advisory board. If Gong gets first choice of land because of lux's, fine. But none of these lands can be settled except for one town (for a harbor) and colonies. A non-breakable treaty (punishable by a team's quick boot from the game) would make entering any lands not given to that team by the board forbidden. We all would know what was available on all land at the time of the treaty. What ever pops up later belongs to the team that has the land. A game of chance. Let's just roll the dice and get it over with.

 

[General_W]

Interesting solution Cyc.

Just a quick note on the "unbreakable treaties" – I think it'd probably be cleanest just to add whatever solution we all agree on to our MTDG rule-set. It would thus become binding, just like the "no reloading" and "no peeking on others' forums" rules.

Best to avoid even calling it a "treaty" imo, so that we can avoid any nonsense about whether or not a treaty can be broken.

Semantics maybe. But just thought I'd toss that out there.

 

[Cyc]

I agree. Ruleset is the better option.

 

[Elephantium]

IMO, Wotan should get it over with and retire team BABE as soon as we have a collective agreement on how to handle their retirement. I'm less than impressed by the collective hissy fit that most BABEs threw and quit the game when their attack on SABER failed. Wotan gets props for soldiering on to allow the game to continue, but I can't get the image of 5-year-olds whining "Wah, wah, we didn't win right away, so the game is ruined!" for BABE as a whole out of my head.

Once BABE resigns, I favor leaving the 11-tile islands open on a first-come, first-settled basis. For the main BABEland, each remaining nation is entitled to settle one city anywhere on the landmass (or one-tile islands).

Once any team enters the modern age (or some other suitable trigger occurs), BABEland is fully opened to additional settlements.

Standard disclaimer: I gathered no input from my fellow FREEthinkers before writing this post.

 

[cubsfan6506]

Babe should retire. NO humans on babes land. Because of late game airbases

 

[Wotan]

I'll continue for a while. The diplo situation is in fact the most important factor for me to continue. Just disbanding everything is not a good option. Unfortunately the situation is not good no matter what the final solution will be. But I assure you we will definitely use the ruleset in place when terminating the position.

EDIT: The merits of this thread are rather dubious. There is basically only one team and one team alone that will be able to influence any decision regarding the future of Babe. As Chamnix said the in game diplomacy basically restricts who can and should influence this. I will discuss any changes to my game involvement with such team(s) but probably not pay too much attention to the wishes of other teams.

 

[Calis]

With all due respect to Wotans efforts to keep the game running, I can't find it very satisfying to let him/BABE drop out of the game whenever he wants to (depending on the ingame situation).

From my very personal point of view it should be like NOW(within a few turns) or NEVER.