UN discussion: BABE's resignation, part 2

[Wotan]

Last time I checked we were not indentured servants here at CFC. You have full control over your choices and I expect you to grant me the same rights Calis.

 

[dutchfire]

Would it perhaps be possible to find someone to play for Babe when Wotan no longer wants to/can, like Chamnix did for Team Loco in the civ4 MTDG? There are plenty of good civ3 players in the GOTM forums, I'd be willing to bet that one of them could be convinced to play the game out.

 

[markh]

I do NOT speak for the Gongers, but I for myself pretty much lost interest in this game. Our diplomacy situation is at least "boring". Furthermore I am a warmonger at heart, so anyway this game is not very exciting for me. I follow it, but honestly I do not mind how this all ends. Just MY personal feelings about this game.

On topic : Any solution is bad. Whether Wotan continues playing a solo game (which is absolutely not in the spirit of the game) or whether he quits. It will be unbalanced and spoiled, but IMO Wotan should be released from playing this. I think it is unfair to commit him for another year playing a game that is no fun for him.

The whole game will have a bad taste after it ended anyway. There will be people saying "If BABES would have/would have not ..., bla, bla, bla" There will be much complaining.

 

[peter grimes]

The merits of this thread are rather dubious. There is basically only one team and one team alone that will be able to influence any decision regarding the future of Babe. As Chamnix said the in game diplomacy basically restricts who can and should influence this. I will discuss any changes to my game involvement with such team(s) but probably not pay too much attention to the wishes of other teams.

Actually, Wotan, the way this all plays out is only in your hands if you continue to play. If you choose to abandon the game, you cannot make any claims on the way the remaining four teams move forward. It's simply not up to you. You give up that privilege when you quit. If you disagree with that, I suggest we put it to a poll of all the players on all the teams.

Abandoning a team game is not at all like leaving an inheritance where you can attach strings to your property and plan for its future. If you cared about the future of your property, you wouldn't abandon.

On a more constructive note:
I agree with Cyc that a 4 person council be convened to negotiate a way forward for the 4 remaining teams. We should try and have an agreement in place by the end of January, when Ginger_Ale and Rik return.

Once the Panel is formed, only the team reps should post in the UN thread, leaving personal comments to the private team forums.

On a personal note:
I kind of like the idea of each team being allowed one settler and x workers. I like the roll of the dice aspect to it.

 

[Wotan]

Actually, Wotan, the way this all plays out is only in your hands if you continue to play. If you choose to abandon the game, you cannot make any claims on the way the remaining four teams move forward. It's simply not up to you. You give up that privilege when you quit. If you disagree with that, I suggest we put it to a poll of all the players on all the teams.

On a more constructive note:
I agree with Cyc that a 4 person council be convened to negotiate a way forward for the 4 remaining teams. We should try and have an agreement in place by the end of January, when Ginger_Ale and Rik return.

But as long as I do play the turns I would appreciate not being told by anyone from another team what to do with BABE assets. Of course I cannot make any claims what happens after I leave the game but that has never been the issue. I have never even hinted at how BABE assets should be dealt with after I am no longer part of the team.

So what I do until I am no longer part of the game is a BABE issue and I would reciprocate by saying: It is simply not up to you, or for that matter anyone from any other team. But leaving the game to a panel where everyone, friends and foes, have equal influence is a solution I would regard as a sellout towards any BABE friends in the game.

It is a tricky situation as I guess we are all aware of. Whatever BABE does will have repercussions on the game. Having entered into a dormant mode in the game has already influenced it I guess. And as Markh said whatever happens there will be a lot of conpiratorila discussions after the game end based on what if scenarios etc. I still think the absolutely best solution would be to put the game to sleep altogether.

 

[peter grimes]

I would appreciate not being told by anyone from another team what to do with BABE assets.

Maybe I wasn't very clear in my post. I was not suggesting limits on what Babe can or can't do up until the time Babe decides to quit.

But seeing as how Wotan (who I assume speaks for all Babes at this point) has already stated publicly that Babe will withdraw from the game as soon as playing the save becomes a little more involved, Babe has indeed already decided to quit - it seems like the other 4 teams are just waiting to find out precisely when. So, though the save is being passed on when it comes around, Babe isn't really part of the game in the same way the rest of the teams are.

Therefore it is practical and necessary for these 4 teams to have a discussion about how to continue the game beyond Babe's involvement. And that discussion should be occurring now, even though there is still nominal participation from Babe. Without all 5 teams playing the game to win, it's really not that interesting for the rest of us who are still playing to win.

I still think the absolutely best solution would be to put the game to sleep altogether.

I can't disagree more completely. The best resolution is for Babe to keep playing, playing to win. That's not possible with the current membership of Babe.

So maybe a recruitment drive in a couple of the other Civ3 forums is in order - to bring in some fresh players to take the burden off of Wotan's shoulders. It worked for the Civ4 mtdg hatsoff:to chamnix )

 

[Wotan]

I'll make an effort to try to find a replacement. I think the best solution would be if BABE could remain in the game. I am just not sure I would be doing the game any favours by playing BABE poorly due to time restraints should activities increase the amount of time I need to allocate to the game.

 

[Whomp]

My guess is that there aren't too many civ players that would be interested in a peaceful builder type game. The game was well intentioned however it did not leave much room for diplo, war or any of the things most people play civ for. If Wotan needs someone else to hit enter for Babe I would do it.

 

[dutchfire]

I am just not sure I would be doing the game any favours by playing BABE poorly

Just my personal opinion, you would be doing the game a favour that way. At least the game will be played that way. And poorly is relative, I have played some turns for team Innovia in the civ4 demogame, and I'm pretty sure they were poor too in comparison with some of the other teams . That hasn't hurt the fun we've had as a team in that game though.

 

[donsig]

If Wotan needs someone else to hit enter for Babe I would do it.

Please do so. The main problem with the game now is we take so long to play a turn. Who knows, as the game progresses BABE may get interested again. I would like to point out however that if BABES want fighting and / or diplo maneuvers they will get neither by conducting phony wars or not talking to other teams.

 

[Cyc]

Good, so we have a promise of hitting enter and sending the save to the next team within 24 hours each time, correct? If the game stalls again, will you resign?

 

[CommandoBob]

If Babe leaves, and that is their decision to make, I (not Team FREE) don't really care for any of the options mentioned so far.

Instead of just resigning and disappearing, let Babe gift cities to each of us. Babe draws up a list of cities in sort of order (alphabetical, city size, date founded; just a list organinzed by some feature) and then goes down the list, gifting the cities to the other teams in Turn Rotation order. That would look something like this:

• City 1: Council
• City 2: Saber
• City 3: Free
• City 4: Gong
• City 5: Council
• City 6: Saber
• City 7: Free
• City 8: Gong
• etc....

This list could be submitted to the Admins for their approval, if needed.

After the cities are gifted and accepted, then Babe resigns, and one city disappears.

Is this too radical a suggestion?

 

[Calis]

Last time I checked we were not indentured servants here at CFC. You have full control over your choices and I expect you to grant me the same rights Calis.

Maybe I had a bad choice of words. I beg your pardon for that.

Of course I do not intend to cut your rights, but yet I feel that it is rather difficult for the other teams to plan any ingame action not knowing WHEN team BABE is going to quit. If I understood your comments correctly this point is definately going to come...we just do not know when!?

 

[donsig]

After the cities are gifted and accepted, then Babe resigns, and one city disappears.

Is this too radical a suggestion?

I think Wotan is reserving the right to do what he wants before resigning. Need I point out this could mean BABE gifts everything to whomever it wants to before bowing out?

 

[CommandoBob]

Hmm.

Maybe we are trying to solve the wrong problem.

Here is my take on it, and I admit I'm trying to be a mind reader.

I think Wotan wants Babe to die honorably, but he does not have a comfortable way to do that.

Now, I've not met Wotan before this game, and even then our contact has been limited. Mostly, I've just seen his posts. And so, I could be very, very wrong.

Wotan has kept playing the game when he clearly does not want to. He could have already resigned Babe out of the game. But he has not. So, I think if we provide a way for Babe to gracefully bow out of the game, Wotan will take it.

What we have done so far is focus on what to do after Babe is gone. Wotan doesn't care about that. He wants to know how Babe can leave and not screw up the game for the rest of us.

 

[donsig]

Care to comment this Wotan?

 

[Elephantium]

I still think the absolutely best solution would be to put the game to sleep altogether.

I'm another one who completely disagrees. Many people, including myself, still find this game interesting, and damnit, we just want to keep playing, not worrying about whether the game will get held hostage by people who don't like the direction the game took in the first 80 turns.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

the problem is that just hitting return isn't going to cut it for BABE. There is a fair chance that hostilities will heat up between BABE and The Council, since we are still at war - and if weariness for BABE heats up, then BABE cities start rioting or things need to be changed.

I believe that if and when that happens, Wotan will stop playing (which, I assume, means BABE retires) and all discussion of what happens to BABE becomes meaningless.

I am reasonably sure that this game will NOT stay peaceful forever, so BABE will have either do something or retire. It's not a question of just hitting enter for the next 20-100 turns or so.

 

[Wotan]

What we have done so far is focus on what to do after Babe is gone. Wotan doesn't care about that. He wants to know how Babe can leave and not screw up the game for the rest of us.

In a nut shell CommandoBob. I absolutely do not want to leave the game in a way that change the power balance too much. Leaving will definitely do that no matter how I try to avoid it. But it is extremely important for me that any friends we have in the game does not find themselves in a position where they are feeling abandoned.

That was why my suggestion to just let BABE be left alone felt like it was a good plan. The four off you can fight it out without having to consider what happens in BABE territory. There were some discussions about what to do with BABE territory if it was to be regarded as wasteland or if it was to be open season for all to go after.

But no matter what the final solution turns out to be it cannot be a solution that is neutral vs all the rest of the teams. Previous actions and diplomacy in the game must have an impact on the solution BABE finally go with. If that is what you call holding the game hiostage so be it but I am not abandoning friends (or foes for that matter).

 

[CommandoBob]

In a nut shell CommandoBob.

Thank you.

I absolutely do not want to leave the game in a way that change the power balance too much. Leaving will definitely do that no matter how I try to avoid it. But it is extremely important for me that any friends we have in the game does not find themselves in a position where they are feeling abandoned.

...

But no matter what the final solution turns out to be it cannot be a solution that is neutral vs all the rest of the teams. Previous actions and diplomacy in the game must have an impact on the solution BABE finally go with. If that is what you call holding the game hiostage so be it but I am not abandoning friends (or foes for that matter).

It sounds like you are saying that Babe's leaving needs to reward Babe's friends and punish Babe's enemies, but not enough to mess up the game.

For instance, say that Babe was ready to leave and had 10,000 gold that Babe wanted to give away. Dividing that 4 ways would give 2,500 to each team. But since you would want to help your friends, you would want to give them more. You could give 5,000 to each friend and nothing to the enemies. However, those gifts would unbalance the game, which is a bad thing. So the final allocation might be 3,000 to each friend and 2,000 to each enemy. The balance of power does not change greatly by these gifts and you have managed to do something good for your friends.

Is this the type of solution you are looking for?