Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings
- Thread starter Vokarya
- Start date
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
I think I can have a look at the code and see if we can simply replace coal with oil and the opposite.
45°38'N-13°47'E;13216727 said:I think I can have a look at the code and see if we can simply replace coal with oil and the opposite.
I'd rather keep them separate. I think there are enough differences once you get past the early Industrial Era that Coal and Oil need to be separate resources, especially when it comes to units. It's not just ships -- it's tanks, mechanized units, aircraft and more.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
I agree, I was saying that maybe I can do oil plants replace coal plants, although I'm not sure it's really worth it.
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
2 buildings, or a building line I have a problem with is the;
All based on Eternity speeds, Gigantic map.
Tannery = 15 % to land based unit production. Cost is 320
An additional 10% bonus, with Salt being available. Obsolete at Assembly line. Gives a base +1 to your cities production.
Next is the Armourer line of buildings, with only add 20% hammers for a cost of 768 Needing Copper or Iron
Now my problem is the doubling of cost, but a 5% increase in production, the expirary date being so close relative to the Tannery, which continues to Assembly line.
The Tannery has no upgrade path at all, and just expires or morph's into the factory at Assembly line.
So what's the solution I hear you
?
The hammer bonus for the Tannery, should be reduced to 10%.
Keep the 10% salt bonus.
This would bring both into line for cost v's benefit comparison.
For the Armourer, add a 10% bonus for having access to Copper or Iron, but don't make it cummaltive. Remove the need to have Copper or Iron BEFORE, you are able to build the Armourer, but you still need the Forge.
Buildings in the upgrade path, should all get a discount if they have the preceeding building in existance, say 50%, this would encourage the usage of these buildings, and not the just building the better replacement.
At the moment, a city with the preceeding building, is charged the same cost as a city, who is building a 'green fields' development. The 50% discount, could be justified with upgrading the existing production process, and knowledge of the processes and skills.
Forts, 50% Defence, upgrade to Bunkers, 75% Defence, which upgrade to Command Posts, 100%, but aren't linked in building upgrades or the Civopedia as a upgrade or upgrades too. Bonus for upgrading as well.
All based on Eternity speeds, Gigantic map.
Tannery = 15 % to land based unit production. Cost is 320
An additional 10% bonus, with Salt being available. Obsolete at Assembly line. Gives a base +1 to your cities production.Spoiler :
Next is the Armourer line of buildings, with only add 20% hammers for a cost of 768
Needing Copper or IronSpoiler :
Now my problem is the doubling of cost, but a 5% increase in production, the expirary date being so close relative to the Tannery, which continues to Assembly line.
The Tannery has no upgrade path at all, and just expires or morph's into the factory at Assembly line.
Spoiler :
So what's the solution I hear you
?The hammer bonus for the Tannery, should be reduced to 10%.
Keep the 10% salt bonus.
This would bring both into line for cost v's benefit comparison.
For the Armourer, add a 10% bonus for having access to Copper or Iron, but don't make it cummaltive. Remove the need to have Copper or Iron BEFORE, you are able to build the Armourer, but you still need the Forge.
Buildings in the upgrade path, should all get a discount if they have the preceeding building in existance, say 50%, this would encourage the usage of these buildings, and not the just building the better replacement.
At the moment, a city with the preceeding building, is charged the same cost as a city, who is building a 'green fields' development. The 50% discount, could be justified with upgrading the existing production process, and knowledge of the processes and skills.
Forts, 50% Defence, upgrade to Bunkers, 75% Defence, which upgrade to Command Posts, 100%, but aren't linked in building upgrades or the Civopedia as a upgrade or upgrades too. Bonus for upgrading as well.
I agree on Tannery; the bonus is big, and there's a gigantic difference between Tannery without Salt and Tannery with Salt. Tannery without Salt is almost not even worth building.
We can't get too complex with the Armourer: the XML doesn't allow putting both a resource prerequisite AND a limitation on the same bonus. It's one or the other, so I'm going to leave it the way it is. Keep in mind the bonus is only for Land unit production.
I will do some looking, but I think there may already be a bonus to build a building that is replacing an existing building.
We can't get too complex with the Armourer: the XML doesn't allow putting both a resource prerequisite AND a limitation on the same bonus. It's one or the other, so I'm going to leave it the way it is. Keep in mind the bonus is only for Land unit production.
I will do some looking, but I think there may already be a bonus to build a building that is replacing an existing building.
I'm still trying to find places where we can link buildings together to try and put a little more unity on the gigantic building list without being heavy-handed about it. I came up with a few more.
Artist's Guild: This should require some practicing Artists before it can be built. I think Sculptor's Workshop or Painter's Studio or Theatre would be enough.
Convention Center: This is kind of a strange building, but I can live with it. Still, I would put a requirement of Hotel or Vacation Resort on it. This just prevents it from showing up immediately on a new Modern city's build list.
Paved Roads: I'm going to link this to Public Transportation and Personal Rapid Train. I don't think we need another building between them. The real change will be that the later two buildings inherit Paved Roads' +1 Trade Route and +25% Trade Route Yield, allowing these buildings to be an upgrade without any downside.
Artist's Guild: This should require some practicing Artists before it can be built. I think Sculptor's Workshop or Painter's Studio or Theatre would be enough.
Convention Center: This is kind of a strange building, but I can live with it. Still, I would put a requirement of Hotel or Vacation Resort on it. This just prevents it from showing up immediately on a new Modern city's build list.
Paved Roads: I'm going to link this to Public Transportation and Personal Rapid Train. I don't think we need another building between them. The real change will be that the later two buildings inherit Paved Roads' +1 Trade Route and +25% Trade Route Yield, allowing these buildings to be an upgrade without any downside.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Sounds great!
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Here I have to disagree. Tannery as it stands is a culmination of years of tweaking. I vote it stays as is, no changes.
We did the same thing to forges back in RoM days. Forges when RoM was young was The production target building to get. Then ppl started picking at it. Wasn't long it's importance became minimal and it was an after thought type bldg in the end.
Who targets and aims for forges now? Will Tannery become just like it?
JosEPh
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Actually Forges are pretty strong when you get some metal resources.... but I agree they're not so great without resources. All in all, I feel forges are balanced anyway, for current gameplay.
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
Forges are Great, I build them as a standard build in all cities.
When you get access to Copper or Iron, 90% of time you'll have one or the other, the bonus hammers can quickly rise to +4 or more.
For a NEW city, that is a huge bonus of 25% - 50% of base hammers.
Each % bonus on base builds all quickly accumulate.
When you get access to Copper or Iron, 90% of time you'll have one or the other, the bonus hammers can quickly rise to +4
or more.For a NEW city, that is a huge bonus of 25% - 50% of base hammers.
Each % bonus on base builds all quickly accumulate.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
@45* and IPEX,
Still not the point. Yes forges are okay and better with resources obviously. But forges used to be "The" Production improvement that you focused your attention on to get asap, back in the day. Not so now. That is the point guys.
And tannery is now under similar degradation assault.
JosEPh
Still not the point. Yes forges are okay and better with resources obviously. But forges used to be "The" Production improvement that you focused your attention on to get asap, back in the day. Not so now. That is the point guys.
And tannery is now under similar degradation assault.
JosEPh
I think Forge is pretty good right now; it's one of the first things I build in a new city, along with Apiary, Granary, and AP-powered Monastery and Temple. If you feel that strongly about Tannery, I will leave it completely alone.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
It's always the first thing I build in a city, but I'm not aware of how it got 'weakened'..?
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
It's always the first thing I build in a city, but I'm not aware of how it got 'weakened'..?
Did you play Rise of Mankind back in '07 thru '09? If not then it was before your time. Back when AND was a young modder's modmod.
One of the problems I've had thru the years with this mod is it's "lack" of production (hammers. food and gold) early game. It's why I re-introduced Jungle Camps back into the Mod. I understand the philosophy for keeping the early game simple, so that you have a viable game still when you get to Ren and Industrial eras and beyond. But most of the time this mod has a very boring early game stage, lot's of click turn click turn for thousands of game years. (of course maps, map sizes, game speeds, and game setup options all play into this).
JosEPh
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
SVN 708 Eternity speeds -
Well, if you don't want to reduce the tannery, why not increase the Armourer. Make it 30% production for land based units, with a added bonus for having access to Iron or copper, and not as a pre-requisite to build the building.
Again I say, its double the cost, but only a bost of 5% to Hammers, it should be double the Tannery's boost.
Otherwise its not worth the building of the building, and if your trying to make it a liner progression, its the logical suceeder to a Tannery.
By then you have Forges running, for the hammer boost.
*Edit* I've gone and amended the file CIV4BuildingInfos.xml, added a <!--- XML Comment ---> to keep the alteration and changed the same on the SVN copy I donwload too.
It immediately asked for a recalcalculation, upon reloading, or could be down via Cntl-Shift-Q. I've set it at 30%, and its for land units only, I didn't change the metal requirements, too much fiddling. (not sure on what to change where)
In MY opinion, if you want Tannerys at 15%, they should morph into Armourers, as the Granaries do as an example. By the time Armourers are available, you have your production up and running.
Well, if you don't want to reduce the tannery, why not increase the Armourer. Make it 30% production for land based units, with a added bonus for having access to Iron or copper, and not as a pre-requisite to build the building.
Again I say, its double the cost, but only a bost of 5% to Hammers, it should be double the Tannery's boost.
Otherwise its not worth the building of the building, and if your trying to make it a liner progression, its the logical suceeder to a Tannery.
By then you have Forges running, for the hammer boost.
*Edit* I've gone and amended the file CIV4BuildingInfos.xml, added a <!--- XML Comment ---> to keep the alteration and changed the same on the SVN copy I donwload too.
It immediately asked for a recalcalculation, upon reloading, or could be down via Cntl-Shift-Q. I've set it at 30%, and its for land units only, I didn't change the metal requirements, too much fiddling. (not sure on what to change where)
In MY opinion, if you want Tannerys at 15%, they should morph into Armourers, as the Granaries do as an example. By the time Armourers are available, you have your production up and running.
As I pointed out over in the Great Persons thread, building an Academy doesn't make much sense after about the Renaissance Era, as it takes much, much longer to equal the investment made by spending a Great Scientist to discover a tech. Likewise, I don't think it's very valuable to build more than one Scotland Yard with a Great Spy, because you only really need one for a Top Secret Agent and the only other major bonus is the espionage boost in one city. So I'd like to enhance them a little to make them still worth building.
The other thing that I feel about these two buildings is that they feel like something similar to, but not exactly, a National Wonder, as they require spending a valuable Great Person (Military Academy is the third building of this group, but I don't want to touch that at all). I think they should get a small bonus to reflect this.
Here's what I would like to do:
Academy
Scotland Yard
The other thing that I feel about these two buildings is that they feel like something similar to, but not exactly, a National Wonder, as they require spending a valuable Great Person (Military Academy is the third building of this group, but I don't want to touch that at all). I think they should get a small bonus to reflect this.
Here's what I would like to do:
Academy
- 2 Scientist slots
- +1 Great Person point (Great Scientist)
Scotland Yard
- 2 Spy slots
- +1 Great Person point (Great Spy)
- +2 XP for Espionage Units
I think I have an idea for what to do with Oil Refinery and Steel Mill. I've never been particularly comfortable with these two buildings as regular buildings, as it's possible for them to turn 1 Iron or Oil resource into a gigantic number of Steel or Oil Products resources. Most of the other buildings that provide resources are National Wonders, but I don't think that's quite the way to go here.
What if instead, Oil Refinery could only be built in a city that had Oil in its city radius, and Steel Mill could only be built in a city with Iron in its city radius? I think that would restrict the two buildings without crippling them completely. Also keep in mind that Ironworks and Biofuel Refinery would be exempt from these restrictions.
What if instead, Oil Refinery could only be built in a city that had Oil in its city radius, and Steel Mill could only be built in a city with Iron in its city radius? I think that would restrict the two buildings without crippling them completely. Also keep in mind that Ironworks and Biofuel Refinery would be exempt from these restrictions.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
One thing I wish Civilization IV did differently was how it handled access to resources. If you only had one unit of Iron, that can supply your entire civilization with countless troops for generations. Other than corperations and the 'having a backup supply' and the possible trading to others... There's no real benefit for having more than one unit of Iron/Coal/Uranium/whatever nor any real drawback to only having one unit (Other than being cut off of whatever unit they unlock if it gets disconnected)
If I recall the Colonization spinoff actually provided benefits for owning more of a specific resource, and your troops/buildings production was limited by the availability of that resource. This is one of those things I'd love to see implemented, though it may not be practical or even possible... So that you could only train so many units with one unit of a resource, and would have to disband or in some way remove the units requiring that to be able to train more... Or something.
I guess that's what the Resource Depletion option is for, but I'm not fully sure I really want to use that. Dunno how often new resources would spawn, and it would totally suck to have your only unit of Iron for miles around randomly vanish in the middle of a war and be reduced to Archers while your rival is rolling down on you with Swordsmen and Maces and has three or more sources of Iron
Sure that happens all the time with the RMG, but it'd be so unfair for it to happen in the middle of a battle or something because of an unfavorable dice roll
nionios
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2013
- Messages
- 459
One thing I wish Civilization IV did differently was how it handled access to resources. If you only had one unit of Iron, that can supply your entire civilization with countless troops for generations. Other than corperations and the 'having a backup supply' and the possible trading to others... There's no real benefit for having more than one unit of Iron/Coal/Uranium/whatever nor any real drawback to only having one unit (Other than being cut off of whatever unit they unlock if it gets disconnected)
If I recall the Colonization spinoff actually provided benefits for owning more of a specific resource, and your troops/buildings production was limited by the availability of that resource. This is one of those things I'd love to see implemented, though it may not be practical or even possible... So that you could only train so many units with one unit of a resource, and would have to disband or in some way remove the units requiring that to be able to train more... Or something.
I guess that's what the Resource Depletion option is for, but I'm not fully sure I really want to use that. Dunno how often new resources would spawn, and it would totally suck to have your only unit of Iron for miles around randomly vanish in the middle of a war and be reduced to Archers while your rival is rolling down on you with Swordsmen and Maces and has three or more sources of Iron
Sure that happens all the time with the RMG, but it'd be so unfair for it to happen in the middle of a battle or something because of an unfavorable dice roll
I completely agree.There should be a different status relating units per resource.The speeding of production for owning more than one resource is a good idea.
As for depletion, imo isn't exactly related to this case and i don't know how exactly works.
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