What Do You Think About the Game's Leader Choices?

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Nazi symbolism of any kind is illegal in Germany even today, so including Hitler would close off the German market to Civ V. As Germany is a major consumer of video games, this would cost Firaxis quite a bit of money. This is likely the reason for Hiter's exclusion.

I doubt that this is the only reason why they won't add in Hitler.

One disadvantage people like Stalin and Hitler have compared to leaders like Gengish khan is that they are much more modern and their crimes are better documented.
However their is alot of leaders that was around as evil as Stalin and Hitler.
However don't only count numbers of people that died in their regimes as evilness.
In civ 4 terms Stalin basicly used slavery but alot of things did improve rapidly, compared to alot of the russain tsars that showed little to no care at all about their own people, I think Catharina includes in this.

 

[Loucypher]

Nazi symbolism of any kind is illegal in Germany even today, so including Hitler would close off the German market to Civ V. As Germany is a major consumer of video games, this would cost Firaxis quite a bit of money. This is likely the reason for Hiter's exclusion.

That, and I do think it's preferable to show the unifier of Germany as it's figurehead rather than someone who plunged Germany into it's darkest hours. Military wise, Germany was at the top of it's power under Hitler's reign to be sure, and he did give the economy a boost in the first years, but everything after that has been all about the war and systematic genocide. At least in the cases of Stalin and, to a lesser extent, Mao, you could say that they've had an impact on peaceful times for a longer period, for better or for worse. You could probably find a lot more positives about those two then you could about Hitler. Which says quite a lot.
In the same vein you have Genghis Khan. While it's true he has a huge death count on his name, he has also implemented various social reformations that were for the benefit of the conquered territories, and he had been known to be quite decent towards those who surrendered without a fight. When you crossed him though, yeah, that's gonna be an issue.
Atilla is much further back into history. It's hard to judge his actions given the way things were done back then, and besides, the Huns in the game feel kinda odd anyway.

One change I'd like to see is Julius Caesar in favor of Augustus. While Augustus isn't a bad choice, I think Julius's endeavors have had an even bigger impact on Rome, and therefore on the entire known world of those days.

 

[Acken]

Even without Germany ban I'm fairly sure they'd not have put him in. Easiest solution overall to appease consciences and keep the "friendly" feel of the game. It also makes sense in Civ5 where only one leader will represent a country.

 

[JFD]

In civ 4 terms Stalin basicly used slavery but alot of things did improve rapidly, compared to alot of the russain tsars that showed little to no care at all about their own people, I think Catharina includes in this.

It is very difficult to substantiate this statement. There is no tool to measure the compassion of one Tsar to the next, in comparison to Stalin. But many Tsars certainly showed more than "little to no" compassion for their subjects. But I think you're judging the Tsars unfairly by modern standards.

 

[HeliosDisciple]

Hitler would be alright in Civ4, I guess, given the multiple leaders (and all the WW2-era leaders other states got).

In Civ5...no. It's bad enough that "Germany = Hitler LOL!!1!1!" in pop culture and on the internet, for him to be the sole representative of all German history is rather disgusting.

I generally think, that there are far too many female leaders. I guess they want some sort of divercity, but aside from the austrian and russian empress, the others do not seem to be too significant figures.

Theodora was absolutely powerful - by her command alone the Pope was thrown out of office, for one. By many sources she ruled as co-Emperor alongside her husband.

Really, the only problem with having her as the leader is that to do so you have to deny the spot to Justinian, arguably the greatest of all the Byzantine Emperors.

 

[GreekAnalyzer]

This can be said about alot of the leaders in game, few if any have anything near a clean record.

Alot of the Russian Tzars was very bad, maybe even worse than Stalin.
Peter the Great I have heard built a city with slave labor which lead to the deaths of thousands among others things.
Catharina's regime was criticised for its brutality against the commoners by another monarch.
Atleast you can say that Stalin may have showed some care to the commoners and I have also heard that Stalin lived in relative modesty but it could be propaganda.

They didn't kill 20 million people.

 

[dragonxxx]

Nazi symbolism of any kind is illegal in Germany even today, so including Hitler would close off the German market to Civ V. As Germany is a major consumer of video games, this would cost Firaxis quite a bit of money. This is likely the reason for Hiter's exclusion.

Its illegal in many other places too actually ...

 

[reddishrecue]

Germany had rises and falls way before Hitler. Germans rose with Hitler again after Germans fell... that's according to civilization 5 civilopedia.

 

[Kiang]

In Civ5...no. It's bad enough that "Germany = Hitler LOL!!1!1!" in pop culture and on the internet, for him to be the sole representative of all German history is rather disgusting.

This.
I was also going to mention this, but I felt like leaving a short and unopinionated comment at the time. Coming back to this thread a few days later, however, I feel as though I must give this quote my support and bring up a few other points, as well. German history is ancient and interesting, and leads all the way from the early Germanic peoples to the modern Germany we know today. This is not to mention the Weimar Republic, Prussia, and the Holy Roman Empire, as well. My point is, there are hundreds (even thousands, depending on how you count them) of fascinating years of German history, filled with wonderful culture and awesome people. To have the representative of all of German history be Adolf Hitler, even in a fun and casual video game such as Civ V, is completely inappropriate. Being half German myself, it makes me very uncomfortable, to say the least.

Another thing to consider is that, unlike with Genghis Khan, there are people still alive today whose family members were directly affected by the Holocaust. And no, this isn't just conjecture. For example, my best friend is half Polish, and his grandfather was in a concentration camp during the war (Luckily, he made it out alive, but my point still stands). Look, I know that you guys want to go terrorize the world as Hitler. Or play against him and then post screenshots with a bunch of Holocaust jokes that everyone did Nazi coming. Or fulfill whatever other reasons you may have for wanting Hitler in Civilization. I respect that; it's your life and your game and you paid good money for it - but please, use a Nazi Germany mod! Sure, there may not always be a mod for adding the Nazis to any given game you want to be Hitler in, but Germans shouldn't have to deal with all these "lol Naziii" remarks, which are reinforced by having Hitler represent all of Germany.

However, in regards to Civ V, you're lucky enough that one such mod does exist. JFD's Empire of Germany is fantastic, and the art is great. I personally recommend it; it has all of the Hitler you could possibly want and none of the implications that this terrible man should be the one person we represent all of Germany by. Rant over, I am so so so sorry about that; I know how annoying it is when people get all butthurt and post big walls of text on threads, but I had to do it. I know it's just a silly discussion, but this is a matter that I feel very strongly about.

TL;DR (I don't blame you for skimming it)
I wholeheartedly agree with HeliosDisciple. In my humble opinion, Adolf Hitler should never be used to represent all of Germany (unless, of course, it's specifically Nazi Germany - I am 100% cool with that). The two things that first come to mind, to many people, when Germany is mentioned are Hitler and the Nazis. Civilization should not reinforce that connotation. Also, Kiang takes General Discussions way too seriously.