What is your opinion on Venice possibly being included as a civ?

[truenarnian]

I'm one of those anti-Eurocentrism folk, but my view is more nuanced that a reductive yes/no.

In a perfect world, Firaxis would make a thousand civs available. Or would sell us a toolkit that allows us to easily design our own icon, colour scheme, and tools to make a UA and some combo of two UU,UB,UGP,UI - but they haven't done that yet.

So we're at the mercy of what they do give up - and they give us a LOT of European civs. I don't think that makes Firaxis racist; it makes them a business with a bottom line and a fanbase they need to keep happy. There is some latent racism evident in the posts in this forum, which is both sad and disconcerting, but the bottom line for Firaxis is that Euro civs seem to make people happy.

As for Venice specifically, if they have to put in a Euro civ, I think this is a great choice because it is one we haven't seen before, it fits the trade mechanic well, and it sheds light on a culture that is usually lumped in with "Italy".


TL;DR: I hate Eurocentrism; I think Venice is a good Euro civ, but I still think Firaxis trends Euro too much; Firaxis needs to sell us a $20 make-your-own civ toolkit.

 

[gunnergoz]

I'm one of those anti-Eurocentrism folk, but my view is more nuanced that a reductive yes/no.

In a perfect world, Firaxis would make a thousand civs available. Or would sell us a toolkit that allows us to easily design our own icon, colour scheme, and tools to make a UA and some combo of two UU,UB,UGP,UI - but they haven't done that yet.

So we're at the mercy of what they do give up - and they give us a LOT of European civs. I don't think that makes Firaxis racist; it makes them a business with a bottom line and a fanbase they need to keep happy. There is some latent racism evident in the posts in this forum, which is both sad and disconcerting, but the bottom line for Firaxis is that Euro civs seem to make people happy.

As for Venice specifically, if they have to put in a Euro civ, I think this is a great choice because it is one we haven't seen before, it fits the trade mechanic well, and it sheds light on a culture that is usually lumped in with "Italy".


TL;DR: I hate Eurocentrism; I think Venice is a good Euro civ, but I still think Firaxis trends Euro too much; Firaxis needs to sell us a $20 make-your-own civ toolkit.

Yes, what you said. And they are going to also reward the parts of the world where they know they will have more sales than piracy. It simply makes economic sense. If I live in a region where people buy games and piracy is illegal and not all that simple, then I'm going to probably have a better chance to see my culture represented as an incentive to buy the product. If I live in a place where piracy is rampant and few buy legal copies, I'm not so likely to see my place rewarded by having a civ devoted to it.

 

[JFD]

TL;DR: I hate Eurocentrism; I think Venice is a good Euro civ, but I still think Firaxis trends Euro too much; Firaxis needs to sell us a $20 make-your-own civ toolkit.

You have everything you need between the SDK and the community here to make a full civ in the same style as Firaxis, with the exception of a fully animated leaderhead, which wouldn't be a simple thing for anyone to make anyway.

 

[God of Kings]

You have everything you need between the SDK and the community here to make a full civ in the same style as Firaxis, with the exception of a fully animated leaderhead, which wouldn't be a simple thing for anyone to make anyway.

Not just that, but a convincing voice actor is needed as well.

Good luck finding someone who can speak fluent Sumerian these days.

 

[JFD]

Not just that, but a convincing voice actor is needed as well.

Good luck finding someone who can speak fluent Sumerian these days.

Okay, yes, but my point is that we do have a make-your-own-civ toolkit and we shouldn't forget that.

 

[OsmarChito]

Bet money.

ok how about $30 .....

 

[OsmarChito]

My thinking is based on real clues: what is your opinion based upon except your wish for something, anything, else but Venice?

because it's just a city?????.....was once the republic of venice capital....but that wasn't a big civilization powerfull enough I think isreal was more powerfull than them and you don't see them being in civ5 expansion......the point is is just not gonna be in civ5 bnw expansion....wether you like it or not

 

[gunnergoz]

because it's just a city?????.....was once the republic of venice capital....but that wasn't a big civilization powerfull enough I think isreal was more powerfull than them and you don't see them being in civ5 expansion......the point is is just not gonna be in civ5 bnw expansion....wether you like it or not

I think you need some more time in school, first in English class and then in history class; come back when you've studied a bit more and know what you are talking about, son.

Moderator Action: Inappropriate answer. Such picking is not allowed here.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Israel itself was a nobody when it existed, it was basically there to get conquered a lot by real empires. The only reason its any more relevant to the modern day than any of the other Mesopotamian religions is because Christianity and Islam spawned from it.

 

[Martin23230]

As someone who voted for the middle choice I should say that I'm well aware of the history of the Republic of Venice and it's impact on Europe, and in general I'm a big fan. Had this been a game about Nations or Empires (i.e. Rise of Nations or Age of Empires) I would be delighted about it's inclusion, just not Civilisations. I just feel including Venice over a general Italy to represent all the Renaissance states is doing a disservice to both the other Italian states (Tuscany, Genoa, Naples etc.) that probably won't be included on their own, and also to nations included in other blob Civs (everything from Prussia to Scotland to the Mugals).

So I'm not really against Venice "Oh it's just one city bla bla", I just feel it's a total change of direction for the Civ series with regards to picking Civs that, whilst I might not have chosen had I been in charge, I'm not totally against if they remember it and apply the same thought to over Civs.

Even the poll says 62% of people at least think Venice is a good idea. Unless that 30% who said it was a good choice, but would've preferred someone else, all are gunning for the inclusion of the same civilization, it can be safely argued that the silent majority are ok with, or approve greatly of, Venice. The other third falls into the category, "This is awful, but I'm probably going to buy the game anyway because the game comes with eight other civilizations."

Firaxis can blunt the one or two lost sales.

As mentioned that is one interpretation, this poll is not great. That's the problem with three-option polls like this, both sides are going to consider the middle option as theirs.

I mean imagine if elections were carried out like this: Do you think Barack Obama should be president?
I think it's a great idea 32%
Good choice, but I would have preferred another person as president 31%
Not too thrilled 38%

Pro-Obama people would say that 63% of people think he is a good choice to be President, but Anti-Obama would say that 69% wouldn't want him as President. See? Both sides have a point, since it's unlikely that everyone who voted for the second option had the same person in mind it is quite possible Obama is the majority choice. It's just a stupid way to run an election.

It would be much better to have a poll: Do you think Venice should be a Civilisation?: Yes, No, No opinion/Don't care or something much wider and multi-choice:

Do you think Venice should be a Civilisation?
Yes - I've been waiting for their inclusion since Civ I!
Yes - I think they deserve to be included
Maybe - I have no problem with them specifically, but I would have preferred a different Civ. Had that Civ been included I would say Yes.
No - I would have preferred an Italian Civ
No - I don't see Venice as having done enough to be considered a Civilisation
No - Italy and the Italian states are represented by Rome
No - Less European civs!
No opinion/Don't care

I think that covered all the options , and it would be interesting to see how people's opinions break down. Feel free to suggest more.

 

[cybrxkhan]

because it's just a city?????.....was once the republic of venice capital....but that wasn't a big civilization powerfull enough I think isreal was more powerfull than them and you don't see them being in civ5 expansion......the point is is just not gonna be in civ5 bnw expansion....wether you like it or not

Unfortunately for you, there have been pages and pages of discussions providing evidence for Venice's inclusion. I will lay out what I remember, though others can give me some other evidence I forgot:

1. The remaining civs will have to be between Po-Zu based on the alphabet theory./hypothesis/whatever.
2. There will only be one more European civilization according to the devs. This narrows down the playing field considerably if taken in conjunction with the alphabet theory.
3. Most major European civ candidates such as Hungary, Belgium, Romania, etc., have been ruled out because their respective City States have been spotted in various videos, screenshots, and so on. If you consider this with points 1 and 2, there really isn't much left other than Venice.
4. There is an unidentified purple civ. Its specific type of purple matches exactly with the purple on Wikipedia's version of the Venetian flag. Menzies did a brilliant analysis of this where even in the most conservative estimate, the chances of that purple being the purple from the Wikipedia flag is 1 out of 4250.
5. It is extremely likely that Riga replaced Venice as a maritime CS, due to the fact that it shares Venice's color and CS type - a similar situation has happened every time in a DLC or with G&K.
6. In one of the previews, the previewer commented that concerning one of the civs, he would release the "most serene" details soon. "Most serene" could only be used in the context of a very few polities, Venice prominent among them.
7. Venice's trade and culture focuses fit extremely well into BNW's themes.


Given all the evidence, and probably other evidence I forgot, the chances of Venice's inclusion are extremely, extremely high. Given that we only have one European civ left, unless there is a lot of evidence for any other civ, Venice is the only one with a good chance. Whether you like it or not or do not want to accept it, the evidence is for Venice.

 

[Sonereal]

You have everything you need between the SDK and the community here to make a full civ in the same style as Firaxis, with the exception of a fully animated leaderhead, which wouldn't be a simple thing for anyone to make anyway.

I will be completely fair to our community of civilization creators, there are a lot of well-crafted civilizations with non-animated but still beautiful looking still screens.

The major issue is that civilizations made by Firaxis are higher-quality mainly because a company has access to voice talent and art assets.

ok how about $30 .....

because it's just a city?????.....was once the republic of venice capital....but that wasn't a big civilization powerfull enough I think isreal was more powerfull than them and you don't see them being in civ5 expansion......the point is is just not gonna be in civ5 bnw expansion....wether you like it or not

"One civilization was more powerful than X, therefore X won't be in the game."

Yet the Zulus are in. Therefore, your logic is wrong.

I think you need some more time in school, first in English class and then in history class; come back when you've studied a bit more and know what you are talking about, son.

Oh my. It is almost like Venice consisted of more than just one city. Almost as if this had been repeated several times in several different threads.

As someone who voted for the middle choice I should say that I'm well aware of the history of the Republic of Venice and it's impact on Europe, and in general I'm a big fan. Had this been a game about Nations or Empires (i.e. Rise of Nations or Age of Empires) I would be delighted about it's inclusion, just not Civilisations. I just feel including Venice over a general Italy to represent all the Renaissance states is doing a disservice to both the other Italian states (Tuscany, Genoa, Naples etc.) that probably won't be included on their own, and also to nations included in other blob Civs (everything from Prussia to Scotland to the Mugals).

I don't like a general Italy the same way I don't like general civilizations in...general. I don't know, but after CivIV's bizarre Native American civilization and the Holy Roman Empire, I personally don't like general civilizations and only tolerate India and Greece for a few reasons.

As mentioned that is one interpretation, this poll is not great. That's the problem with three-option polls like this, both sides are going to consider the middle option as theirs.

None of the polls on CFC are going to be great because the sample size is too small, and because even polls with decent-sized samples tend to have issues before we get into the margin of error.

 

[OsmarChito]

I think you need some more time in school, first in English class and then in history class; come back when you've studied a bit more and know what you are talking about, son.

shut up you don't klnow what you are talking about....explain yourself if you think you know more than me, explain why you think venice is going to be in bnw ....and maybe English is not my first language , at least I know 2 languages ....be embarrassed when venice will not be in bnw stupid

Moderator Action: Totally inappropriate post.
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Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Sonereal]

shut up you don't klnow what you are talking about....explain yourself if you think you know more than me, explain why you think venice is going to be in bnw ....and maybe English is not my first language , at least I know 2 languages ....be embarrassed when venice will not be in bnw stupid

Technically 1.5 languages.

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[KrikkitTwo]

shut up you don't klnow what you are talking about....explain yourself if you think you know more than me, explain why you think venice is going to be in bnw ....and maybe English is not my first language , at least I know 2 languages ....be embarrassed when venice will not be in bnw stupid

Venice Should not be in.*
However, almost certainly Venice Will be in.

*some will disagree as can be seen in the poll, but I am clarifying a common position. There are multiple civs actually in the game already that many people justfiably think should not be.

 

[OsmarChito]

Technically 1.5 languages.

Moderator Action: Personal attacks are not allowed here.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

at least I know 1.5 languages but you only know 1.0

Moderator Action: Like already said: No personal attacks here please.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[OsmarChito]

Venice Should not be in.*
However, almost certainly Venice Will be in.

*some will disagree as can be seen in the poll, but I am clarifying a common position. There are multiple civs actually in the game already that many people justfiably think should not be.

hahaha wow I can't believe you really think venice will be in as a civilization in bnw just wait and you'll see when it won't....

 

[ImperialChaos]

Venice is in; check the various threads about evidence for it. Again, I would have preferred Italy, but you're dealt with the cards you're given.

 

[Merciorum]

hahaha wow I can't believe you really think venice will be in as a civilization in bnw just wait and you'll see when it won't....

It'll be moderately amusing if it is in (as is highly probably these days, given the wealth of evidence and that PC Gamer preview comment) and you're wrong...

 

[Arachnofiend]

hahaha wow I can't believe you really think venice will be in as a civilization in bnw just wait and you'll see when it won't....

Given the most serene amounts of evidence, which includes the most serene alphabetical achievement list, the most serene indications that Venice as a Venetian city-state has been replaced by Riga, the most serene colors of the unknown civ being taken from the most serene Wikipedia page for the Most Serene Venetian Republic of Venice, and the most serene hint from the most serene previewer that states that the unknown (but undoubtedly serene) "bombshell" civ is most serene indeed, I believe we can at this point assume the Most Serene Venetian Republic of Venice is included in the game in the most serene fashion possible.