What other Civs would you like to see added to DoC

[Uncle Paul]

Which is what would happen if no one settles South Africa?

Even if no one settles South Africa, they still should spawn. After all, France and Spain still spawn even if Rome is defeated in the BC era.

 

[Darnokthemage]

I would like seeing some bronze age civs be represented in Europe and other places, being able to lead the Indo European invasion would be fun.
Other unrealistic thing would be adding more civs in some sort of Civ Col-style natives, so you can't see their borders and you can settle their land in exchange for funds.
Would be useful representing certain less "standard" civs, Maybe stuff like the Celts, Saami, Vends, Early Slavs.

 

[Dracosolon]

To redirect the discussion from this thread, I thought I'd post here.

Australia's UHV seems to be a pretty problematic aspect. Australian history is short enough that there isn't a whole lot of time for big flashy historical achievements you could turn into UHV goals.

The first one proposed is usually one about covering Australia's territory, sometimes including other islands like New Zealand, presumably because the latter is more ambitious than just settling the desert. Personally I think a good compromise could be to formulate the first UHV as: "Control or vassalize X% of Oceania and have [list of buildings] in every city by [date]", with X% roughly corresponding to the proportional surface of Australia in-game (or maybe a bit less if that's more achievable). That way, the player would have a choice between settling poor desert cities with a lot of land, or settling/conquering island cities with good terrain but little land. The building condition would make this a true puzzle because it would require you to limit how many cities you get, while also demanding smart management of your workers and buildings to maximize production in every city. Puzzle UHVs are typically very tightly timed and do not involve a lot of foreign involvement, so that would be a good fit for Australia.

The second goal proposed is usually something to do with military involvement, sometimes represented by gifting units. While certainly original, I doubt that that would be very entertaining to play. But maybe gifting cities you'd have to conquer outside of your continent could be fun, since it would involve more proactive gameplay and represent (in an exaggerated way) actual military engagements rather than just military production. Gifting units could still be part of the goal but I don't think it should be reduced to just that.

Third goal should logically extend toward the end of the timeline, for the sake of a UHV that isn't dramatically short. Something like building the Harbour Opera sounds obvious, if a bit boring. Discovering techs like Refrigeration as has been proposed in modmods could work but wouldn't extend very far in time unless it involves very late techs. I think something that could be interesting would be to have scores of ///etc. in X cities. This would pull you in different infrastructure directions without letting you overspecialize your cities. would then replace a technology goal, while and would be helped by the Harbour Opera (along with, say, a couple of Nature Reserves).

 

[TwoF]

To redirect the discussion from this thread, I thought I'd post here.

Australia's UHV seems to be a pretty problematic aspect. Australian history is short enough that there isn't a whole lot of time for big flashy historical achievements you could turn into UHV goals.

The first one proposed is usually one about covering Australia's territory, sometimes including other islands like New Zealand, presumably because the latter is more ambitious than just settling the desert. Personally I think a good compromise could be to formulate the first UHV as: "Control or vassalize X% of Oceania and have [list of buildings] in every city by [date]", with X% roughly corresponding to the proportional surface of Australia in-game (or maybe a bit less if that's more achievable). That way, the player would have a choice between settling poor desert cities with a lot of land, or settling/conquering island cities with good terrain but little land. The building condition would make this a true puzzle because it would require you to limit how many cities you get, while also demanding smart management of your workers and buildings to maximize production in every city. Puzzle UHVs are typically very tightly timed and do not involve a lot of foreign involvement, so that would be a good fit for Australia.

The second goal proposed is usually something to do with military involvement, sometimes represented by gifting units. While certainly original, I doubt that that would be very entertaining to play. But maybe gifting cities you'd have to conquer outside of your continent could be fun, since it would involve more proactive gameplay and represent (in an exaggerated way) actual military engagements rather than just military production. Gifting units could still be part of the goal but I don't think it should be reduced to just that.

Third goal should logically extend toward the end of the timeline, for the sake of a UHV that isn't dramatically short. Something like building the Harbour Opera sounds obvious, if a bit boring. Discovering techs like Refrigeration as has been proposed in modmods could work but wouldn't extend very far in time unless it involves very late techs. I think something that could be interesting would be to have scores of ///etc. in X cities. This would pull you in different infrastructure directions without letting you overspecialize your cities. would then replace a technology goal, while and would be helped by the Harbour Opera (along with, say, a couple of Nature Reserves).

Perhaps the aspect that adds to the fun for Australian civilization should be aggressive expansion as the only European colonial representative in the Pacific?
It's not very historical, but it's not always prevented to add something to the game. In addition, the historical path is rather boring.
I mean to imagine Australia as a kind of "new Great Britain" in the Pacific Ocean, just as faceted by the seas. You can choose the option of either resisting the "old Great Britain", where you need to assemble a powerful fleet and liberate India and Southeast Asia from the Europeans (technology allows), and thereby get rid of competitors. Or collect a powerful fleet and engage in the conquest of Asian civilizations, I compete with Japan to create their own "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere", but under a "more worthy European command."

 

[ozqar]

Perhaps something related to Australia's exports (earn X gold from food and metal exports) and something related to its efforts attracting immigration (have open borders with and better quality of life than X civs)?
For a UP, coastal cities can work their third ring (to simulate the extreme urbanization and let the civ work a more of the interior with a realistic settlement pattern)

 

[Dracosolon]

I know there have been modmods and proposals emphasizing the Australian mining industry with increased and . That's a great UP, but as a followup to the idea of emphasizing Australia's exports, and to allow it to work even crappy desert tiles, I'd amend it to something like that:

The Power of Mineral Wealth: Mines have a minimum yield of 2 Food and grant double Production, Commerce and Resources.

Immigration is probably best represented by an UB.

 

[mccp77]

I know there have been modmods and proposals emphasizing the Australian mining industry with increased and . That's a great UP, but as a followup to the idea of emphasizing Australia's exports, and to allow it to work even crappy desert tiles, I'd amend it to something like that:

The Power of Mineral Wealth: Mines have a minimum yield of 2 Food and grant double Production, Commerce and Resources.

Immigration is probably best represented by an UB.

I think immigration is unnecessary for an Australian civ. I'm currently in 1968 of a game, and Britain has 5 cities along the coastline each with a pop of around 10. Even today, Australia only has 25million people. It should be scarcely populated.

 

[mccp77]

To redirect the discussion from this thread, I thought I'd post here.

Australia's UHV seems to be a pretty problematic aspect. Australian history is short enough that there isn't a whole lot of time for big flashy historical achievements you could turn into UHV goals.

The first one proposed is usually one about covering Australia's territory, sometimes including other islands like New Zealand, presumably because the latter is more ambitious than just settling the desert. Personally I think a good compromise could be to formulate the first UHV as: "Control or vassalize X% of Oceania and have [list of buildings] in every city by [date]", with X% roughly corresponding to the proportional surface of Australia in-game (or maybe a bit less if that's more achievable). That way, the player would have a choice between settling poor desert cities with a lot of land, or settling/conquering island cities with good terrain but little land. The building condition would make this a true puzzle because it would require you to limit how many cities you get, while also demanding smart management of your workers and buildings to maximize production in every city. Puzzle UHVs are typically very tightly timed and do not involve a lot of foreign involvement, so that would be a good fit for Australia.

The second goal proposed is usually something to do with military involvement, sometimes represented by gifting units. While certainly original, I doubt that that would be very entertaining to play. But maybe gifting cities you'd have to conquer outside of your continent could be fun, since it would involve more proactive gameplay and represent (in an exaggerated way) actual military engagements rather than just military production. Gifting units could still be part of the goal but I don't think it should be reduced to just that.

Third goal should logically extend toward the end of the timeline, for the sake of a UHV that isn't dramatically short. Something like building the Harbour Opera sounds obvious, if a bit boring. Discovering techs like Refrigeration as has been proposed in modmods could work but wouldn't extend very far in time unless it involves very late techs. I think something that could be interesting would be to have scores of ///etc. in X cities. This would pull you in different infrastructure directions without letting you overspecialize your cities. would then replace a technology goal, while and would be helped by the Harbour Opera (along with, say, a couple of Nature Reserves).

I don't think Australia has that many powerhouse cities in real life. It really is Sydney and Melbourne. That is why I lean towards the focusing on one or maybe two cities that really should have huge cultures + the Opera house. I do think your nature preserves idea is an interesting one as just getting to the ecology technology normally doesn't happen until the second half of the twentieth century. I do think the Olympics should be added to the Opera House if practical though simply because Australia didn't just hold the Olympics but the bi-millennial Olympics. You don't have a new millennium every year. I also think it makes 2000 a practical and optimal goal for the third UHV with the 1901 start date. Assuming anybody else plays on marathon as I do that is a 200 turn game -- quite substantial.

 

[Dracosolon]

In that case I guess it could be average city scores, since one or two cities with lots of multipliers do the bulk of the work. I still think it could be something more diverse than just - excess is interesting because as you've said Australia doesn't have that much population, but it does have access to infrastructure that in DoC terms contributes to .

Something like "Have an average city score of X in , and excess by 2000 AD" is a bit generic since all civs strive to raise those anyway, but the point should be to focus on fast development (while being handicapped by the poor terrain cities you'd have settled for the first territorial UHV).

I'm not entirely dure what you envision by the Olympic Games reference. Should it be a new National Wonder or something? In which case it could be coupled with other ones like a National Park, etc.

 

[mccp77]

In that case I guess it could be average city scores, since one or two cities with lots of multipliers do the bulk of the work. I still think it could be something more diverse than just - excess is interesting because as you've said Australia doesn't have that much population, but it does have access to infrastructure that in DoC terms contributes to .

Something like "Have an average city score of X in , and excess by 2000 AD" is a bit generic since all civs strive to raise those anyway, but the point should be to focus on fast development (while being handicapped by the poor terrain cities you'd have settled for the first territorial UHV).

I'm not entirely dure what you envision by the Olympic Games reference. Should it be a new National Wonder or something? In which case it could be coupled with other ones like a National Park, etc.

I believe there is an Olympics wonder? However, I think it comes in the industrial age, so if its not practical for a 1901 start then it could just get nixed. I'm not sure exactly what it is supposed to represent historically.

 

[mccp77]

Hi all,

So I originally put these in the wrong thread and wanted to post them to the correct thread here. My take on new civs has always bee that they should be added in waves similar to EU4 patches with emphasis on specific time periods / regions. So I organized them thusly:

Modern / Post-Colonial Civs: Currently the late 20th century is dominated by a three-way competition between the British Empire, USSR, and USA. This is unrealistic, and these additions fix that by dramatically weakening / even collapsing the UK and creating a more historically appropriate China, so the late 20th century becomes a three-way fight between the USSR, USA, and a (somewhat weaker) China.

Australia: Spawn 1901
Game Length (Marathon): 200-250 turns
Logic: Australia in-game is a never-assailed production zone for the British Empire by the 1900s and, along with India and South Africa makes Britain post-1950 OP b/c it never declines as it should. Adding Australia weakens Britain and adds a civilization to Oceania with one-of-a-kind UHVs.

UP: Recession-Proof -- All plots without improvements provide +1 gold. Australia cannot experience recessions.
Logic: This UP will encourage settlement of the interior and help Australia to establish a strong economy, despite the late spawn date.

UHV 1: Tame the Outback -- Settle all (or X% of if the desert can't be settled) of modern Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, New Guinea, and Tasmania and connect every city in mainland Australia to the capital by road by 1975.
Logic: Australia was scarcely populated well into the second half of the 20th century and still is. Highway 1 was officially commissioned in 1975. It is the longest highway in the world.

UHV 2: ANZACs -- Gift 10 industrial era or later units to the U.K. by 1950. Gift 25 global era or later units to the U.S. by 2000.
Logic: This will make the British navy/air force more powerful in the early Twentieth Century then strengthen America in the second half of the Twentieth.

UHV 3: High-Income -- Build the Sydney Opera House, have an average of 2,000 culture per city, and have the highest per citizen income (per turn spending on science + espionage + culture + treasury / city pops) in the world in 2000.
Logic: The Logies are Australian Television Awards, and the Golden Logie is given to the most popular television personality in Australia. Since this would be the cultural hub, it's a clever play on an Australian cultural object. The objective is based on Australian TV culture's worldwide acclaim, the Sydney Opera House's iconic status, and Sydney's place as host of the 2000 Olympic Games. This objective will make objectives 1 and 2 more difficult by forcing Australia's capital to focus on culture.

UU: Digger -- Replaces the Infantry and comes with +25% city defense built-in. This will help Australia to defend itself while it ships all its military off to Britain and America.
UB: Ore Refinery -- Replaces the industrial park and generates +1 additional trade route. Again, it will help the economy with Australia's late start.

South Africa: Spawn 1910
Game Length (Marathon): ~250 turns
Logic: South Africa in-game is a rarely-assailed production zone for the British Empire by the 1900s and, along with India and South Africa makes Britain post-1950 OP b/c it never declines as it should. Adding South Africa weakens Britain and adds a civilization to Africa with one-of-a-kind UHVs.

UP: Race Classification -- When 3 citizens of a city of 4 or more become unhappy, the next turn the population decreases by 3 and a laborer is generated automatically. This UP disappears if the country embraces the egalitarianism civic.
Logic: This UP represents the apartheid system of South Africa. I think it fairly represents both the cruel nature of the oppression and will help to create the workers that will build the nation's infrastructure in a hurry to compensate for its late start.

UHV 1: Blood Mines -- Settle or vassalize all of Southern Africa and the Congo, have all cities connected by rail, and mine at least X(3?) sources of diamonds, X(3?) sources of gold X(2?) sources of copper, and X(2?) sources of aluminum in 1965.
Logic: In 1965, Rhodesia/Zimbabwe became independent from Britain, making South Africa the dominant regional power with its monopoly on rail transport and mineral exports.

UHV 2: Rainbow Nation -- Build the World Cup (new happiness wonder) and have the most surplus happiness per city in the world in 2010.
Logic: 2010 is the year South Africa hosted the FIFA World Cup and showcased its diversity. This UHV is good because it will require South Africa to focus on happiness buildings, end apartheid sometime after it achieves its 1965 UHV, and keep its population small -- which will prevent it from becoming unrealistically strong.

UHV 3: An African Bomb -- Build 6(?) nuclear weapons by 1989.
Logic: In 1979, South Africa tested its first nuclear weapon, and in 1982 it acquired its first operational weapon, Cabot. At the time it got rid of its nukes in 1989, it had a small nuclear arsenal of 6 bombs. It remains the only African country to ever possess a nuclear weapon.

UU: Cape Corps -- Replaces the Infantry and can build roads and railroads. This will help South Africa to fight and develop its infrastructure.
UB: HIV Treatment Center -- Replaces the hospital. Provides +2 additional happiness. Helps with the rainbow nation goal.

Manchus (Mongol re-spawn): Spawn 1616
Logic: We need a Qing civ and a China civ. The latter should tech reasonably well, even into the modern era. Even as a poor country Chinese modern tech has always outstripped its economic development. The Manchu should be backward and vulnerable after an initial conquest. A Mongol re-spawn really doesn't add much to the game, and even the fact of its modern independence was and is tenuous at best. Splitting the Qing and Modern China into separate civs fixes the existing disjunction.

UP: Green Standard Army -- When a pre-renaissance unit is defeated, there is a 33% chance that it joins your army.
Logic: This allows the Qing to rapidly metabolize the Chinese army on conquest.

UHV 1: All Under Heaven -- Control or vassalize all of China, Xinjiang, Mongolia, Manchuria, Tibet, Burma, Thailand, Vietnam, Taiwan, Korea, and Japan and have 5 vassals in 1760.
Logic: Set up an East Asian tributary system.

UHV 2: The Middle Kingdom -- Have the largest economy and population in the world in 1860.
Logic: 1860 is the year of the Second Opium War's Ending. By this point European economies should be your primary competition.

UHV 3: Self-Strengthening -- Complete 8 industrial era technologies by 1900.
Logic: The tech rate for Qing will be truly terrible, so this will be a challenge. I assume GP would have to be used.

UU: Eight Banner Cavalry -- Replaces the lancer. Has +25% against gunpowder and archery units. They will cut through the Chinese city defenders.
UB: Tai-pan (Canton trading factory) -- Replaces the lighthouse. Provides +25% commerce instead of an additional trade route. This building will be very beneficial in the 1600s when trade routes are less valuable, but its value will taper off.

West African Civs: West Africa was a vibrant part of the larger classical and medieval worlds with its own kingdoms and empires. It was set up very similarly to pre-Colombian MesoAmerica or pre-modern Asia where one hegemon would rule over many vassal and client states at a time in a hub and spoke system. It was finally broken -- again in a similar way to MesoAmerica by a tiny Moroccan force with gunpowder. However, conquest by the Moroccans would be so unsustainable that it would also destabilize Morocco, collapsing both the traditional West African state system and Morocco.

New native/independent Cities:
Koumbi Saleh (Ghana Empire) 350A.D.
Gao (Gao state) 650 A.D.
Takrur (Takrur state) 800 A.D.
Ouagadougou (Mossi Kingdoms) 1050A.D.
Kano (Hausa) 1430 A.D.
Ubino (Benin) 40 B.C.
Kumasi (Ashati -- if possible) 1680 A.D.

New Events:
- Moroccan Conquerors -- Morocco gets conquerors when they discover arquebusiers.
- French Conquerors -- France gets conquerors when they discover railroads, riflemen, and artillery

Songhai: Spawn 1375 (Capital: Gao)
Logic: Ethnically distinct from the Mandinka of Mali, the Songhai won their independence as the small kingdom of Gao ~1375, although they would not become the dominant regional empire for another 80 years.

UP: Conquest of the Mandinka -- Triple gold from conquering cities.
Logic: This synergizes with Songhai's need to amass wealth.

UHV 1: Trans-Saharan Trade -- Control or vassalize Mali by 1475 and have road connections to the rulers of Egypt and Morocco.
Logic: Set up a Trans-Saharan Trading System.

UHV 2: The Greatest African Empire -- Have 10,000(? shooting for more than Mali) gold and allow no foreign, independent, native, or barbarian cities in all of West Africa in 1650.

UHV 3: Resist the Invaders -- Do not lose a city until 1900 and no European colonies west of Sudan, north of Congo, or South of the Sahara in 1900.
Logic: This requires you to resist two waves of conquerors -- not an easy task, but a necessary one to preserve the millenias-old political system of West Africa.

UU: Hajj Devotee -- Replaces the great prophet. Can conduct foreign trade missions.
UB: Mud Mosque -- Replaces the Islamic temple. Provides +25% gold.

 

[Dracosolon]

Australia:
- UP: I don't think a UP that applies to every tile is very good. Australia will have a lot of desert tiles and those are uninteresting even with a bonus. If it's a terrain UP it should probably be restricted to improving a few high value tiles. I agree that fast development should be its focus though.
- UHV 1: As said above I like the option of phrasing it as "control X% of Oceania" just to give a bit more freedom as to how to achieve it: in-land expansion or conquest.
- UHV 2: I would add something about gifting one or two conquered cities as well, just because it's a more proactive role that would demand you to actually use your units.
- UHV 3: The Harbour Opera wonder should be either a requirement or have synergy with the goal, I agree. Your mention of income per citizen is interesting, a metric in that vein could make for a very unique game where you'd try to come up with the most efficient buildings for that. Minor nitpick would be that depending on phrasing this could encourage you to whip/draft/starve your population on the last turns, which isn't desirable.
- UU: Will Australia even have to defend itself?

South Africa:
- I think the spawn could be moved earlier for more turns.
- UP: I'm not sure that something Apartheid-related should be a UP, but if that's the case it could also be accomplished by boosting the existing Slave mechanism, or by boosting whipping. I agree though that Egalitarianism should effectively end it either way.
- UHV 1: A bit ahistorical territory-wise but it could work. Infrastructure goals make sense for a civ that young.
- UHV 2: World Cup could just be Wembley, maybe? In addition to happiness a high number of specialist slots could also be required, since this would effectively force you to adopt Egalitarianism while rushing toward the relevant buildings.
- UHV 3: I think this one makes sense as a science goal, though I'm not sure if something more notable could be implemented.

Manchuria:
- Would this civ also represent modern China or would China get a rebirth? If the former is the case this should be reflected in the UHV and civ attributes. Otherwise looks okay.

Songhai:
- Problem is that the Mandinka already have a gold UHV. Two UHV based around no foreign/European cities is also a bit much.
- UU: This would be the first Great Person UU. Could just be part of the UP.

 

[mccp77]

Australia:
- UP: I don't think a UP that applies to every tile is very good. Australia will have a lot of desert tiles and those are uninteresting even with a bonus. If it's a terrain UP it should probably be restricted to improving a few high value tiles. I agree that fast development should be its focus though.
- UHV 1: As said above I like the option of phrasing it as "control X% of Oceania" just to give a bit more freedom as to how to achieve it: in-land expansion or conquest.
- UHV 2: I would add something about gifting one or two conquered cities as well, just because it's a more proactive role that would demand you to actually use your units.
- UHV 3: The Harbour Opera wonder should be either a requirement or have synergy with the goal, I agree. Your mention of income per citizen is interesting, a metric in that vein could make for a very unique game where you'd try to come up with the most efficient buildings for that. Minor nitpick would be that depending on phrasing this could encourage you to whip/draft/starve your population on the last turns, which isn't desirable.
- UU: Will Australia even have to defend itself?

1. The UHV #1 could be changed to emphasize mines, but I like this better because it makes the useless cities slightly less useless (still pretty useless).
2. Your UHV #2 suggestion is fine but the % should be very high.
3. UHV #3 could be rephrased as "High HDI" to focus on non-financial elements such as culture and nature preserves. (I like nature preserves because they require the late-game ecology tech.) Just something to do with development due in 2000 A.D.
4. UU might not be necessary in general ..... but every other civ has one, so consistency seemed important. After all, how often does anybody use the corvette as Canada w a no war UHV? It'll be no less useless than Canada's UU. We could give them an immigrant or a convict to settle with, but the White Australia policy kept immigration really low for a long time, and convicts were no longer sent by 1900, so neither are historical. Where possible historicity should trump marginal gameplay synergies.

I saw an Australia in this thread that began in 1850 and had its last UHV in 1950. I think it'd take very little to simply push that civ's spawn date up 50 years, push its UHVs back to 2000, and you'd have a historical Australia game.

South Africa:
- I think the spawn could be moved earlier for more turns.
- UP: I'm not sure that something Apartheid-related should be a UP, but if that's the case it could also be accomplished by boosting the existing Slave mechanism, or by boosting whipping. I agree though that Egalitarianism should effectively end it either way.
- UHV 1: A bit ahistorical territory-wise but it could work. Infrastructure goals make sense for a civ that young.
- UHV 2: World Cup could just be Wembley, maybe? In addition to happiness a high number of specialist slots could also be required, since this would effectively force you to adopt Egalitarianism while rushing toward the relevant buildings.
- UHV 3: I think this one makes sense as a science goal, though I'm not sure if something more notable could be implemented.

1911 would be the latest spawn, but it would actually give them more turns than Australia and the same number of years (100 years, ~ 250 turns on marathon). Again, both of these civs might be more puzzle-like but that's OK. They serve important roles beyond their UHVs in introducing balance to the twentieth century.

UP & UHV1: Other ways of doing Apartheid should be fine, but apartheid should be the UP. It really is uniquely South African. For UHV1 territory, think like Argentina controlling Chile and the whole Southern Cone in most games or Gran Colombia. Is it historical? No, but sometimes gameplay performance concerns must trump.

UHV2: Wembley was in the 19th century in real life and comes too early. I do believe the modern FIFA World Cup is a wonder and should be represented as such. It may require a hit football event to build .... (that South Africa would have to trade for). In theory, I like the specialists, but I fail to see the tie-in to South African history. Don't you receive penalties if other civs have egalitarianism and you don't?

UHV3: Seemed unique -- Ethiopia and Mali never build bombs.

Manchuria:
- Would this civ also represent modern China or would China get a rebirth? If the former is the case this should be reflected in the UHV and civ attributes. Otherwise looks okay.

This civ would represent Qing China and be a Mongolia re-birth. China would get a re-birth. Manchus would get the current cruddy industrial Chinese tech rate, and China's tech-ing would be more respectable. This helps with twentieth century balance as once Manchu's collapse and modern China comes back with its decent land and tech it will likely be -- or compete to be -- the #3 power behind Russia and America forming Henry Kissinger's triangle.

Songhai:
- Problem is that the Mandinka already have a gold UHV. Two UHV based around no foreign/European cities is also a bit much.
- UU: This would be the first Great Person UU. Could just be part of the UP.

This one needs work. I will brainstorm more. The problem is one of the few civs I rarely play is Mali. But I standby the idea that Songhai was large enough and distinct enough to get its own civ, and that West Africa as a whole (not Africa, West Africa) needs some flavor now that the Swahili have been introduced to really give some personality to East Africa.

 

[ThreeBlackSevens]

2) find a way to represent nomadic 'tent cities' -- not just their mobility, but the fact that they benefited mostly from flat grasslands since that's where their horses and other livestock could thrive. Disincentive nomadic cities from settling near hills or forests that ordinarily have better production. One possibility: nomadic cities are only able to work grassland or plains tiles. Alternately, nomadic cities might be limited to only working tiles with pasture-resources (horses, cows, sheep, etc.) but receive must better bonuses from those resources. Find a way to tie total units produced to number of horses/animal resources? (With the bigger map, we should consider adding a lot of horses and similar resources to the steppes in that case). Also, make it possible for 'tent cities' to become real settlements. Karakorum becoming an actual city during the Mongol conquests (specifically as a result of loot and captives being brought back to show off) is a good example, though there have been many others before and after them.

4 year old post but I don't think I've seen anything about this yet - perhaps there could be an animal resource that is only visible to nomadic civs, which either moves or completely shuffles to a new location within the allowed area every x (or between x and y) turns. If it's important for gameplay or historical reasons to have continuous cities that improve over time, then maybe you could build a unit which works like a settler but "carries" the city, so that when it settles again all or some of the progress in that city is retained in the new location. Additionally allowing them to let their culture persist in areas they move out of could be an idea, most likely with some level of degradation over time so that if they don't return, control is lost.

 

[mccp77]

Songhai:
- Problem is that the Mandinka already have a gold UHV. Two UHV based around no foreign/European cities is also a bit much.
- UU: This would be the first Great Person UU. Could just be part of the UP.

This one needs work. I will brainstorm more. The problem is one of the few civs I rarely play is Mali. But I standby the idea that Songhai was large enough and distinct enough to get its own civ, and that West Africa as a whole (not Africa, West Africa) needs some flavor now that the Swahili have been introduced to really give some personality to East Africa.

I thought this one out today and have some proposals for 2 new West African civs and just a general overhaul of the region in the far-flung future when time allows.

Ghana Empire (Classical Period) / Mali Empire (Medieval Period)
Mande People

Spawn Date: 300

UP: Current

UHV1: The Trans-Saharan Caravans: Conduct 1 great merchant trade mission outside of Subsaharan Africa by 650, 3 by 1000, and collect 20,000(?) gold by 1500.

UHV2: Center of Religious Learning: Move your Capital to, build the University of Sankore in, and settle a Great Prophet in a city on the Niger river by 1300.

UHV3: Hajjs of the Mansas: Conduct two great merchant trade missions to your holy city by 1350.
Note: You don't start with a religion with a 300 spawn -- you have to get one.

UU: Current

UB: Current

Sokoto Imamate (one/two cities)/Caliphate (three cities or more)/Nigeria (if Islam not state religion)
Fulani People
Note: "Sokoto" shouldn't just represent Sokoto but the Fulani people who established Jihadist states all the way across West Africa in the early 1800s. To those who doubt whether a territorial discontinuous civilization should be represented, keep in mind that Sokoto alone was the 10th most populous state in the world in 1837 and the most populous outside of Eurasia.



Spawn date: 1750

UP: The Power of Half-Persons – Sokoto alone may build slave plantations in Africa. Upon conquering a city with religions other than Islam receive 1 free slave and remove all non-Islamic religions from the city.

UHV1 – Fulani Jihads: Allow no religion but Islam in any inland West African (north of Congo, West of Sudan) city in 1830

UVV2 – Slave Economy: Accumulate 25(?) slaves and slave plantations by 1903.
Note: Sokoto had 1.5--2million slaves out of a population of 10--20 million in 1860 giving it the highest per capita number of slaves of any country in the world unless the Confederacy is counted. The practice was not banned until the arrival of Europeans, and plantations in Sokoto were enormously profitable.

UHV3 – Population Explosion: Have the largest population living outside of Eurasia in 1850.
Sokoto's upper-end population est. of 20 million in 1837 was the 10th highest in the world trailing only China, India, Japan, and 7 European countries.

UU: Fulani cavalry – Attack bonus on flat terrain. Replaces the lancer.

UB: Ribat – Replaces the barracks. Provides +10% Commerce for every slave settled in a city.

Songhai Empire
Songhai People



Spawn date: 1375

UP: The Power of City Sacking – Receive 3x gold from city conquest.

UHV1 – The Greatest African Empire: Conquer and/or vassalize Mali and allow no independent, native, or barbarian cities west of Lake Chad in 1500.

UHV2 – The Exchange of Ambassadors: Have an overland trade route to every other Muslim capital by 1530 and conduct one trade mission to every Islamic civilization by 1750.

UHV3 – The Traditions of the Askias: Collect 20,000(?) gold and do not lose a city until 1900.

UU1: Current

UB: Trade Inspector’s Office – Replaces the courthouse: Provides one merchant slot.

New Independent and native cities
Gao (Gao state) 650 A.D.
Takrur (Takrur state) 800 A.D.
Ouagadougou (Mossi Kingdoms) 1050 A.D.
Kano (Hausa City States) 1430 A.D.
Ubino (Benin) 40 B.C.
Kumasi (Ashanti -- if not already settled) 1680 A.D.
Njimi (Kanem-Bornu) 1090 A.D.

New events

Moroccan conquerors on Songhai – Scripted to not occur before 1530 (2nd Songhai UHV part 1) or after 1650, occurs when the Moroccans get firearms + geography. This is meant to collapse Songhai (and Morocco).

French Conquerors – Scripted to occur in Africa either in 1885 or when the French discover railroads, machine guns, and whatever tech represents a cure for Malaria. It grants the French conquerors on West Africa.

Suggested Core Changes

The British should gain "green" cores on Egypt and Nigeria.

The French should gain "green" cores on all of inland West Africa.

I know none of these things are priorities, but I wanted to putout some ideas to bat around with a little bit of detail for the new map in the far-flung future.

 

[Blue Sun]

Hi everybody,

I don't know if this civilization has been suggested:

Confederate States of America.

Yes, I know the were defeated four years after they were born, but it could be interesting to have them in the game. Obviously, the resistance of the United States should be strong and CSA stability should be very weak.

Their spawn location is not very crowded and the could be a great alternate history factor.

What do you think about it?

 

[Enyavar]

Yes, I know the were defeated four years after they were born, but it could be interesting to have them in the game. Obviously, the resistance of the United States should be strong and CSA stability should be very weak.

Not a fan.

Spoiler If I may: :

• The United States are still a young civ in 1860, but if the CSA spawns, it's only the CSA that gains baby-protections. The protections for new Civs last for 10 turns, and are significant.
• Meta-knowledge: If the player knows that the CSA will spawn, they will hesitate to plop any city or development in that area. Well, I certainly would.
• If you make the spawn dependent on the stability of the US, then the player will just avoid the instability threshold (Well, I certainly would). Meanwhile, the AI is either always stable enough to avoid the CSA... or sometimes the AI is instable enough to cause the CSA appearing, which then means that the AI-US cannot reign it in, in turn.
• Leoreth has repeatedly said his mod is not about alternate realities: If the CSA spawns, the AI-US will probably regularly fail hard to reign in the CSA, so the CSA can then establish their alternate-reality Golden Circle territory.
• Unless you make the CSA disappear after a few turns if the USA are run by the AI... So if you're doing that, what's the point?
• So far, all I considered before are AI-run CSA. But last point, what are the suggestion for player-takeovers? What are their suggested Unique Historical Victory conditions? (Evil slavery-related UHVs are already part of the Brazil and Congo experiences)

Another thing is that the only other civilization that has a "rebel" moving against the parent, is the Roman Empire. Just take China for example, there are several dozen "civil wars" that DoC doesn't adress.

 

[Blue Sun]

Not a fan.

Spoiler If I may: :

• The United States are still a young civ in 1860, but if the CSA spawns, it's only the CSA that gains baby-protections. The protections for new Civs last for 10 turns, and are significant.
• Meta-knowledge: If the player knows that the CSA will spawn, they will hesitate to plop any city or development in that area. Well, I certainly would.
• If you make the spawn dependent on the stability of the US, then the player will just avoid the instability threshold (Well, I certainly would). Meanwhile, the AI is either always stable enough to avoid the CSA... or sometimes the AI is instable enough to cause the CSA appearing, which then means that the AI-US cannot reign it in, in turn.
• Leoreth has repeatedly said his mod is not about alternate realities: If the CSA spawns, the AI-US will probably regularly fail hard to reign in the CSA, so the CSA can then establish their alternate-reality Golden Circle territory.
• Unless you make the CSA disappear after a few turns if the USA are run by the AI... So if you're doing that, what's the point?
• So far, all I considered before are AI-run CSA. But last point, what are the suggestion for player-takeovers? What are their suggested Unique Historical Victory conditions?

Another thing is that the only other civilization that has a "rebel" moving against the parent, is the Roman Empire. Just take China for example, there are several dozen "civil wars" that DoC doesn't adress.

Ok, I understand your explanation. It seems logical. CSA wouldn't be a good candidate.
I will continue looking for better candidates.
Thank you.

 

[mccp77]

I put a lot of thought into this b/c I want to try mod modding civs when 1.18 comes out. I think of them less as "what civs would I like to add" and more as "what regions / periods would I like expansion packs for if this were a commercial game." I think overhauling eras / regions does a better job of maintaining game balance than just adding individual civs one by one.

The expansions packs I thought about after 1.18 dropped were:
1) Chile pack (Chile civ): this would be my first attempt and a practice. I think it would be a good practice because it's fairly self-contained.
2) Commonwealth pack (Australia civ, South Africa civ, increase max number of civs to 40, changes stability modifiers so empires become progressively more unstable beginning in the global era): spices up the modern game by encouraging the decline of empires in general and the British empire in particular.
3) Hordes of Manchuria pack (Machu civ, barbarian Jurchen spawn at Shangjing [modern Harbin] in 1074, improve China tech rate post-Renaissance)
4) Africa pack (West Africa overhaul outlined above + Imerina & Oman civs)
5) Cradle of Civilization pack (puzzle civ Sumeria addition + Babylonia [Amorite] start date pushed back to 2000BC and UHVs tweaked).
6) Greek World Pack (Independent Knosses [Minoans], Lydian civ, Macedonian civ, Greek civ UHV overhaul to focus more on colonization / less on conquest of Persia)
7) Civilizations of the Andes pack (Moche addition, Wari addition, Chimu additions)

I have a lot of details outlined for all of these, but I didn't want to create a monster post.

My criteria for a "civ" were:
1. Cultural and ethnically-contiguous groups (within reason) at their core distinct from already represented groups (Rome/Byzantium and HRE/Germany "historical significance" exception carved out for Greece/Macedonia).
2. At least one large city with a pop > 20,000 (4-5 pops in civ4 terms).
3. Occupation of a large enough area on the map to have multiple cities.
4. A sedentary culture that practiced agriculture at some point.
5. a top-down system of organization that would be recognizable as a gov't to us in a modern sense.

#1 prevents civs like the USA/CSA & Sparta/Athens. It also prevents more than 2 Turkic and Mongolic steppe civs from appearing.
#2 prevents including proto-civs like the Chavin/Nazca that influenced later larger civs but lacked large cities.
#3 prevents proto-civs that were confined to small areas by environmentally or socially contingent conditions like the Olmec/Zapotec.
#4 prevents steppe civs like the Scythians/Xiongnu/Huns from appearing.
#5 prevents stateless civs like the Tiwanaku.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

UHV 3: High-Income -- Build the Sydney Opera House, have an average of 2,000 culture per city, and have the highest per citizen income (per turn spending on science + espionage + culture + treasury / city pops) in the world in 2000.
Logic: The Logies are Australian Television Awards, and the Golden Logie is given to the most popular television personality in Australia. Since this would be the cultural hub, it's a clever play on an Australian cultural object. The objective is based on Australian TV culture's worldwide acclaim, the Sydney Opera House's iconic status, and Sydney's place as host of the 2000 Olympic Games. This objective will make objectives 1 and 2 more difficult by forcing Australia's capital to focus on culture.

SIr, or should I say MATE, I must insist that this UHV name be something with "DOLLARY-DOOS".