Which new heroes would you like to see?
- Thread starter Dknight99
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I think I have to disagree with this. Though the AI is hurt by its lack of high leveled troops, I just don't think bringing down the human player to its level is not the answer. If the combat promotions are weakened, then it becomes a spamfest of whoever can produce the most units in a given timeframe. Though it may make the game more balanced, it would lead to excessive micromanagement and a loss of the "ohh, look at my elite units!" feeling. Of course, that's just my opinion, and it does appear that the approach has been used in other mods such as TAM for quite some time.
That being said, perhaps it would be possible to give the AI free unit experience a-la-FfH so it would be producing troops of good quality right off the bat. That should help bring the AI up more to the humans level of troops quality without taking anything away from gameplay.
By unit combat promotions I mean promotions a legion unit gained according to it's hero's corresponding unit combat level. I think those promotions used to be too powerful, player would always want to choose those promotions first. We have to introduce artificial limitations such as hero level prerequisites to limit access to those promotions. That does not feel right.
So I adjusted all promotions in the released Patch A. You can all see the effect and tell me if something went too far.
So I adjusted all promotions in the released Patch A. You can all see the effect and tell me if something went too far.
AnotherPacifist
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Patience my friend. A friend of us who is an expert in history is making up the list. Most of the famous heroes will get on stage this time. However, if we try to adhere to our quality standard, which we always do, it will take more time than a week. 
ORION11380
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Regarding heroes and legions, I'd like to point out that "generals" actually did not play that big of a part when it came to commanding troops as much as marshals and stratigists. At that era, the stratigists would lay out the formations and such before the battle, and once the battle is joined, it's basically mass chaos. A battalion led by Guan Yu isn't that much more affective than a battalion led by Liu Hua, except for the fact that Guan Yu is killing a few hundred men by himself and boosting the moral of his soldiers, while the latter is hiding behind a wall of shields.
I love the existing legion system, but if you want to emphasize the powers of the "big 3" grand commanders (ZL, Sima Yi, and Zhou Yu), then have 2 classes of heroes. GENERALS only command 1 unit, making it a super unit (like the BtS Great General), and COMMANDERS can form legions with special abilities, like the HoTK legions.
For example, ZL could command, say, 5 units in his legion (can we say, 5 tiger generals?), and his special ability would be negating terrain disadvantages, and automatically hitting the units most vulnerable to the attacking type (like how Ballista Elephants hit mounted units first). Sima Yi would command 4 units, and his special ability would be, say, all archery units get to inflict collateral damage when one of the units attack, since part of Wei's tactics is to blanket the enemy with a hail of arrows.
I love the existing legion system, but if you want to emphasize the powers of the "big 3" grand commanders (ZL, Sima Yi, and Zhou Yu), then have 2 classes of heroes. GENERALS only command 1 unit, making it a super unit (like the BtS Great General), and COMMANDERS can form legions with special abilities, like the HoTK legions.
For example, ZL could command, say, 5 units in his legion (can we say, 5 tiger generals?), and his special ability would be negating terrain disadvantages, and automatically hitting the units most vulnerable to the attacking type (like how Ballista Elephants hit mounted units first). Sima Yi would command 4 units, and his special ability would be, say, all archery units get to inflict collateral damage when one of the units attack, since part of Wei's tactics is to blanket the enemy with a hail of arrows.
We will emphasize the superior importance of Zhuge Liang, Zhou Yu and Sima Yi, but it seems our legion system works quite right, so I doubt it's good to nerf them and make Guan Yu command only 1 unit.
Zhuge Liang and Guan Yu are no different in regard to their leading troops and deciding the outcome of combat. They are both No.1 in charge, for example, Guan Yu is the one leading Jing Zhou army to fight with Cao Cao and Lu Meng, and Zhuge Liang is the one leading Shu army to fight with Sima Yi. They both make strategies, except perhaps Zhuge Liang's strategies are better. And of course, Guan Yu is a great warrior while Zhuge Liang is a great politician. That means their promotions and abilities will be different.
Zhuge Liang and Guan Yu are no different in regard to their leading troops and deciding the outcome of combat. They are both No.1 in charge, for example, Guan Yu is the one leading Jing Zhou army to fight with Cao Cao and Lu Meng, and Zhuge Liang is the one leading Shu army to fight with Sima Yi. They both make strategies, except perhaps Zhuge Liang's strategies are better. And of course, Guan Yu is a great warrior while Zhuge Liang is a great politician. That means their promotions and abilities will be different.
ORION11380
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I agree. As I said, I love the existing legion system. At least until I get bored of it after winning with all 3 factions multipul times with different methods.
I have to disagree on that. Guan Yu and other generals did act autonomously when commissioned with an army, and some were even appointed as governors and what not, with supreme powers. But in grand campaigns, even the tiger generals had to answer to ZL and Zhou Yu, and there were several cases where the "warriors" were not happy in having to serve under those "philosophers."
But if you look at the accounts of the battle, whenever a "hero" entered the battle, it's him with a weapon, leading the charge. Once engaged, the main form of command is for the men to follow his battle standard. If it went forward, go forward, and vice versa. Very rarely does Guan Yu stop in the middle of hacking through the enemy, turn to the lance corporal, pick through the command flags, and waive the flags to the other legions to signal commands. It's ZL, SY, or Zhou Yu sitting on top of the hill in some ornate alter with the smoke, fire, and flag signals.
Like when Zhou Yun saved Gongsun Zan's a$$ against Yuan Shou at the River Pan bridge. He didn't arrange the troop formations like Braveheart at the Battle of Stirling Bridge. No, he ran on the bridge himself and pwned Yuan Shou's army by himself. He couldn't have cared less if he had a legion behind him, or a single schmuck with a chopstick.
I'm going to have to side with stmartin on this one. It is true that when "heroes" enter battle they rarely seem to stop fighting, but you have to realize their legion consists of several different units, each with it's own deputy/officer. That can account for the fact that in game, having Guan Yu lead the charge doesn't mean that the rest of his legion suicides on the other defenders. You can also chalk that up to planning before the battle.
As for strategies and such, you have to concede that Guan Yu and most other "heroes" were all at least competent generals too (from a historical standpoint along with the novel view). Zhao Yun did utilize ploys and ambushes on several occasions as well, showing that they relied on more than thier own strength. The more advanced strategies can be, as stmartin said, implemented with more advanced promotions.
Finally, on the large campaign scale, I believe that grand strategies are beyond the scope of units. Pretend that you are ZL, SY or Zhou Yu when you plan you campaigns, because essentially their campaign plans are how you choose to move your units. So in a sense, the game already has them reporting directly to you!
As for winning easily as all three factions (here I assume you were using Liu Bei, Cao Cao, and Sun Ce) it can be easily done without legions, as it was in the first release. They simply have the best position, the best resources and the best traits. Remeber, if you nerf the "heroes" everyone suffers. Except Wei, Wu and Shu, who would gain great strategists, rendering the change useless from a gameplay perspective.
As for strategies and such, you have to concede that Guan Yu and most other "heroes" were all at least competent generals too (from a historical standpoint along with the novel view). Zhao Yun did utilize ploys and ambushes on several occasions as well, showing that they relied on more than thier own strength. The more advanced strategies can be, as stmartin said, implemented with more advanced promotions.
Finally, on the large campaign scale, I believe that grand strategies are beyond the scope of units. Pretend that you are ZL, SY or Zhou Yu when you plan you campaigns, because essentially their campaign plans are how you choose to move your units. So in a sense, the game already has them reporting directly to you!
As for winning easily as all three factions (here I assume you were using Liu Bei, Cao Cao, and Sun Ce) it can be easily done without legions, as it was in the first release. They simply have the best position, the best resources and the best traits. Remeber, if you nerf the "heroes" everyone suffers. Except Wei, Wu and Shu, who would gain great strategists, rendering the change useless from a gameplay perspective.
ORION11380
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That's true, the player does make all the exec decisions. Liu Bei and Sun Quan were mostly figureheads, with their respective grand stratigists making the critical decisions (maybe the US govt can learn something there...leave the general-ing to the generals). And Sima Yi was the defacto ruler of Wei, and ended up being the emperor.
It goes back to the discussion of "who the heck AM I?" The human player is like some sort of immortal spirit that can transend 6000 years of human history to lead a race through the ages, with godlike powers to smite whole cities with the pressing of Ctrl-W. But that's an off-off-off topic discussion.
ORION11380
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Would you say the Big 3 are the easiest to play? It seems like Liu Biao and Yuan Shao has equal, of not better, starting positions. Yuan Shao starts with quite a bit of resources and infrastructure at his disposal, though with several warmongers around him. Liu Biao has the luxury of being centralized with opportunity to expand, yet has very few threats (well, ONE major threat, the Sun family who hates his guts). And you know how those Lius band together! Not likely for Liu Zhang to backstab him.
Hmm... I'd say the big three are probably the easiest, though Yuan Shao and Liu Biao come really close.
Yuan Shao's weakness in is the military department, not because the lack of generals, but from the long time it takes to turn the Northern Plains into a millitary machine. Too many plains and hills mean very little early troop production compared to say Cao Cao. Not to mention, they have to go through Guan Du, which can mean a very bloody battle early on if Cao Cao makes it to Elite Archers before you attack. He comes close to pushing Liu Bei off the list, but Guan Yu and Zhang Fei are worth more than all of the generals he has combined. Zhang He may be awesome, but he betrays easily to Cao Cao... your first major rival. Happened to me more than once. Lose the 95% city attack, then next turn he's sallying out of the city laying waste to my army.
Liu Biao does win the posistion comparison, but the Jing Province cities lack production. Most of the game therefore is spent constructing buildings and teching. Given that there is no viable peaceful victory except time in this game, Liu Biao lack a good way to win. Sure he gets Huang Zhong and Wen Pin, but Archer Generals are quite weak against Cao Cao's Cavalry and Sun Ce's Danyang Armies. Not to say it isn't possible to build up troops and roll over everyone, but it's harder than the other three.
I'd rank the top three as:
1.) Sun Ce - River Harbors, Seawalls, Charismatic and a few good generals make for total win.
2.) Cao Cao - Great land, great generals, weak neighbors... what not to want?
3.) Liu Bei - Iron Willed, Benevolent, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei makes for very fast expansion once the ball gets rolling.
Finally, to keep the thread on topic... Hopefully Ma Dai is added in the next release, because Ma Teng really needs either a big millitary boost to make them a decent faction, or a large research boost!
Yuan Shao's weakness in is the military department, not because the lack of generals, but from the long time it takes to turn the Northern Plains into a millitary machine. Too many plains and hills mean very little early troop production compared to say Cao Cao. Not to mention, they have to go through Guan Du, which can mean a very bloody battle early on if Cao Cao makes it to Elite Archers before you attack. He comes close to pushing Liu Bei off the list, but Guan Yu and Zhang Fei are worth more than all of the generals he has combined. Zhang He may be awesome, but he betrays easily to Cao Cao... your first major rival. Happened to me more than once. Lose the 95% city attack, then next turn he's sallying out of the city laying waste to my army.
Liu Biao does win the posistion comparison, but the Jing Province cities lack production. Most of the game therefore is spent constructing buildings and teching. Given that there is no viable peaceful victory except time in this game, Liu Biao lack a good way to win. Sure he gets Huang Zhong and Wen Pin, but Archer Generals are quite weak against Cao Cao's Cavalry and Sun Ce's Danyang Armies. Not to say it isn't possible to build up troops and roll over everyone, but it's harder than the other three.
I'd rank the top three as:
1.) Sun Ce - River Harbors, Seawalls, Charismatic and a few good generals make for total win.
2.) Cao Cao - Great land, great generals, weak neighbors... what not to want?
3.) Liu Bei - Iron Willed, Benevolent, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei makes for very fast expansion once the ball gets rolling.
Finally, to keep the thread on topic... Hopefully Ma Dai is added in the next release, because Ma Teng really needs either a big millitary boost to make them a decent faction, or a large research boost!
AnotherPacifist
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I disagree. In fact cultural victory is very possible for nearly all the civs, as long you are able to maintain peace after getting a sufficiently large empire. (in fact the original thread has a whole series done by me on cultural victory). Liu Biao with his UP is the ne plus ultra for getting quick cultural victories.
(Also, production is never far away after Jianan literature and lots of farms around).
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