Which real life civs won which victory conditions

[HughFran]

I can't believe no one said this, but didn't Greece win a Domination Victory in 324BC? We're just living a really long "just one more turn."

That's a very good point!! In saying that though, you could also throw the likes of Rome, Persia, Mongolia and many others into that category as they all at one stage ruled the 'known World' (what was known to them at least).

If we take into account the game ending after all other Civs have been dominated then one of the ancient Civs would definitely have won a long time ago. You could probably say the same for science and culture victories. It's a lot harder to apply these rules to modern societies and opinions have been divided on this forum because everybody has a different take on domination/cultural/science/time/diplomatic victories.

 

[Browd]

Given Alexander's failure to conquer India, and that he never made it as far as China, I would say, no. He was snowballing there for a while, but (in very un-Civ-like fashion) he up and died. Rulers are supposed to be immortal -- at least they are in the game....

 

[reddishrecue]

Wasnt that Alexander's age range? The age that appeared in Greece pre game screen? If that was his age then Alexander only lived to be around 12 years old.

 

[Andy0132]

The Mongols and British holds the top 2 spots for the biggest empire ever. Time is only won by the highest score, and it is difficult to give nations accurate scores. But as time victory ends in 2050 by default, India would have surpass China in terms of population by that time.

Yes, but you fail to take into account that China built the most wonders, as well as having founded two religions. Furthermore, they have the most social policies, as well as a massive amount of land (less than Canada/Russia). Furthermore, China set a good deal of cities off of "Avoid Growth".

 

[CraigMak]

USA: Definitely culture victory. We have the most exported and adopted culture on the planet. Blues, Jazz, Rock, Hip Hop, Rap, Elvis, Bob Marley, etc.. Hollywood Movies, TV Shows, Disney, Sports.

It is said the the most recognizable figures on the planet are: Mickey Mouse, Michael Jordan, Marilyn Monroe & The Current US President. All American things. Although I heard that a decade or so back so Jordan might not be #2 anymore.

 

[sixty4half]

Wasnt that Alexander's age range? The age that appeared in Greece pre game screen? If that was his age then Alexander only lived to be around 12 years old.

He died in his early 30s

 

[poom3619]

I just taking the class about history who teacher think that Globalization is actually wide-scale culture war that USA is winning.

Making me think,
Let's say if North Korea making their own version of Civilization, would they make Juche (Kim-il-sungism) become cultural victory?
or if it was made by USSR, would Communism become OP?

But it's okay, Firaxis is from USA. So we have a fair judgement for every civ,
with Rock n' Roll as a wonder.
and no one but USA getting close to science victory yet.
They can't even make a human landing on the moon

He died in his early 30s

I think he meant how Civ5 artist taking "make most leader looks young" a bit too far for Alexander.

 

[orasis]

America - Cultural.

No, it's not just exports and brands it's also the way we think.

America is a cultural hyper-power.

 

[orasis]

As for food... since someone mentioned that vis-a-vis America.

Italian pizza is nothing like the more popular 'Americanized' Pizza. Same with spaghetti. Spaghetti and meat-balls is not Italian, it's American.

Chinese? Most of those popular 'Asian take-out' meals were created in the United States.

Mexican? You mean Tex-Mex! Real tacos and burritos are nothing like the American ones that most people prefer around the world.

Music? What music genre today did not originate in the United States?

I could go on and on and on.... But America has done culture like no one else has in world history.

 

[poom3619]

^ I think it's "taking other's culture, change it a bit and then say it is from USA"

Music? What music genre today did not originate in the United States?

Genre that you probably never heard of.

 

[Andy0132]

As for food... since someone mentioned that vis-a-vis America.

Italian pizza is nothing like the more popular 'Americanized' Pizza. Same with spaghetti. Spaghetti and meat-balls is not Italian, it's American.

Chinese? Most of those popular 'Asian take-out' meals were created in the United States.

Mexican? You mean Tex-Mex! Real tacos and burritos are nothing like the American ones that most people prefer around the world.

Music? What music genre today did not originate in the United States?

I could go on and on and on.... But America has done culture like no one else has in world history.

Yes, but the American people are eating the food of the Chinese, Italians, and Mexicans. They're adopting the culture of another civilization. They've been heavily influenced by another culture, to the point where they rebrand it as their own.

Currently, many nations around the world have hit influential, but few have managed to convert everyone. If this was Civ V, the USA would have an UA (speaking in Civ V terms) that allows them to use tourism generated by nations with the same ideology. North Korea has a "UA" that negates cultural influence, the list goes on and on.

In order to truly figure out which civ is winning which victory, you'd have to look at their behaviors and "UAs".

 

[zuben]

USA: Definitely culture victory. We have the most exported and adopted culture on the planet. Blues, Jazz, Rock, Hip Hop, Rap, Elvis, Bob Marley, etc.. Hollywood Movies, TV Shows, Disney, Sports.

Bob Marley was born in Jamaica and had a British father. Reggae was also born in Jamaica, although it did draw some of its influence from American styles like jazz, r&b, and delta creole. But this is a perfect example of how culture can't really be attributed to any one nation or civ.

Think of the cultural circumstances in the deep south of America. Blues and jazz may have arisen there, but the roots of both can be found in Africa. A good example would be New Orleans, where food, music, dialect, art, etc. have become so distinct due to the cultural mix. But most of its cultural elements have roots elsewhere.

Cultural archetypes may have once existed, but since the earliest explorers and trade routes they've been continually mixing, rehashing, and evolving. We're now sharing numerals and characters from once disparate number systems and alphabets; likewise words and slang from languages and dialects evolving around the world. Marriage and burial traditions and ceremonies are hybrid amalgamations. We've got near universal cultural biases and taboos against eating other humans or mating with close relatives. I'd think that these aspects probably carry more cultural significance than, say, Vietnamese cuisine featuring a French baguette or which Asian countries use chopsticks regularly.

Tl;dr: IMO, to measure a true cultural leader, we'd need to examine the foundations of society itself. All the art, fashion, religious ceremony, and dietary trends would be transient (and derivative) ornaments on that underlying tree.

 

[reddishrecue]

I think he meant how Civ5 artist taking "make most leader looks young" a bit too far for Alexander.

Oh, its because there's around a ~12 year range in Greek Alexander background. I thought that could've been his age and if not then it could've been Alexander's ~12 year rule over Greece.

 

[sixty4half]

Oh, its because there's around a ~12 year range in Greek Alexander background. I thought that could've been his age and if not then it could've been Alexander's ~12 year rule over Greece.

That's probably more accurate since he inherited Greece at 20 and died shortly before his 33rd birthday, according to a few sources.

As for food... since someone mentioned that vis-a-vis America.

Italian pizza is nothing like the more popular 'Americanized' Pizza. Same with spaghetti. Spaghetti and meat-balls is not Italian, it's American.

Chinese? Most of those popular 'Asian take-out' meals were created in the United States.

Mexican? You mean Tex-Mex! Real tacos and burritos are nothing like the American ones that most people prefer around the world.

Music? What music genre today did not originate in the United States?

I could go on and on and on.... But America has done culture like no one else has in world history.

I don't think food necessarily counts towards cultural victories. Even in game terms, nobody gets extra culture for how many Banana or Wheat tiles they have. You don't get culture for trading your Salt or your Citrus to other civs.


Most of the US's architecture is stolen from other civs, I don't think we get bonus points there. Our personal National Wonder, the Statue of Liberty, was made by the French, so I think although we get a small tourism boost each yeah, France got the equivalency of popping a GM in our borders. We literally borrow everything from every other culture in the world. We're not even 300 years old, I don't think we can claim a cultural victory, in fact we're probably being Influenced by more countries than we are Influencing. The only thing we have going for us is a strong Ideology with lots of ideological tenets put into Happyness so that we don't revolt.

 

[orasis]

Yes, but the American people are eating the food of the Chinese, Italians, and Mexicans. They're adopting the culture of another civilization. They've been heavily influenced by another culture, to the point where they rebrand it as their own.

All culture has been 'adopted' from a previously existing civilization and or tribe, China and Italy are no different than the United States in that respect. Right, so what is important is that the U.S adaptations are much, much more dominant at present than either of the formerly mentioned (at present).

Also since this is not a game and there is no 'end turn' we can point to there is absolutely no doubt that American is by far the most dominant culture on this planet at the moment.

 

[orasis]

I don't think food necessarily counts towards cultural victories. Even in game terms, nobody gets extra culture for how many Banana or Wheat tiles they have. You don't get culture for trading your Salt or your Citrus to other civs.

Recipes do equal culture. A banana is not a recipe, a banana cake is. If food did not equal culture than different cultures would not have so many different recipes and ways of eating, but they do.

We literally borrow everything from every other culture in the world. We're not even 300 years old,

Yes, we borrow and adapt. That is what culture is, every single culture on this planet is the synthesis of things borrowed from a previous one. America is no different, the only reason we think it is is because America, as a civilization, is an extremely young one so it's 'borrowing' is readily apparent that's all.

 

[Priyon]

I'd say, India won a cultural victory. Even after being broken up into 7 different countries today, after being pillaged to extreme levels, India heavily influenced entire SE Asia (after having colonized it once), and exported culture and especially religion to East Asia and other regions. A whole lot of achievements were made, like invention of zero, unique architecture, invention of chess, the list goes on. Until 19th century - the final end of the Mughal Empire and extreme cultural, social and civilization destruction committed in India by the British, Indian culture had prospered and continued projecting influence. And today, it is going a slow revival.

It could be tech victory if the end date was around 13th century - by then India and China (alongside Abbasid Caliphate/Arabia who owned Persia, and Eastern Roman Empire) were the most advanced societies on earth.

Many more categories would apply I think. India was wealthiest state (or region) in the world until beginning of the 19th century, so it could've won a 'wealth victory' of sorts.

What India didn't win was military victory. Indian empires always had a tendency to break up and collapse by themselves. Although Mauryans managed to unite all India, Gupta Empire briefly did it, and Mughals nearly did it, for every century India formed an empire there is also a century where India stayed disunited with heavy infighting.

 

[Andy0132]

I'd say, India won a cultural victory. Even after being broken up into 7 different countries today, after being pillaged to extreme levels, India heavily influenced entire SE Asia (after having colonized it once), and exported culture and especially religion to East Asia and other regions. A whole lot of achievements were made, like invention of zero, unique architecture, invention of chess, the list goes on. Until 19th century - the final end of the Mughal Empire and extreme cultural, social and civilization destruction committed in India by the British, Indian culture had prospered and continued projecting influence. And today, it is going a slow revival.

It could be tech victory if the end date was around 13th century - by then India and China (alongside Abbasid Caliphate/Arabia who owned Persia, and Eastern Roman Empire) were the most advanced societies on earth.

Many more categories would apply I think. India was wealthiest state (or region) in the world until beginning of the 19th century, so it could've won a 'wealth victory' of sorts.

What India didn't win was military victory. Indian empires always had a tendency to break up and collapse by themselves. Although Mauryans managed to unite all India, Gupta Empire briefly did it, and Mughals nearly did it, for every century India formed an empire there is also a century where India stayed disunited with heavy infighting.

The Indians were not unique - the Chinese were the same way, it happened more often. They did share the same religion for a large period of time, but the fact that China founded two religions changes things up.

By your logic, China won a cultural victory. After being broken up at least 9 times, they've managed to reform and hold together. After being pillaged to extreme levels (the capital was burned twice in one dynasty, and most of the major cities were razed at one point or another), they managed to heavily influence their conquerors, to the point where they called themselves Chinese.

Furthermore, the Chinese also had control over Korea, Vietnam, Mongolia, Nepal, and Tibet at varying points throughout history.

 

[Andy0132]

All culture has been 'adopted' from a previously existing civilization and or tribe, China and Italy are no different than the United States in that respect. Right, so what is important is that the U.S adaptations are much, much more dominant at present than either of the formerly mentioned (at present).

Also since this is not a game and there is no 'end turn' we can point to there is absolutely no doubt that American is by far the most dominant culture on this planet at the moment.

With regards to your statement about China, after the Han dynasty, the second dynasty of unified China, the Chinese culture more-or-less stabilized and grew. In fact, they were the ones who were sharing culture - all of their conquerors eventually set up dynasties and named themselves the sons/daughters of heaven.

 

[sixty4half]

Recipes do equal culture. A banana is not a recipe, a banana cake is. If food did not equal culture than different cultures would not have so many different recipes and ways of eating, but they do.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that recipes equal culture. Recipes are largely determined by what's available in your geographical location, which also explains why Pizza and other foods have become Americanized. We simply don't cook the same way the Italians do, or have the same ingredients available (We do now have access to those ingredients because of "Refrigeration" but did not always have that access). Simply because I eat curry chicken doesn't mean I have any interest at all in Bollywood, will start listening to Carnatic or am going to read the Mahabharata.

I think we need to keep tourism confined to how the game determines it for the sake of this discussion. Natural Wonders, World/National Wonders, Architecture and Art, Music and Literature.

The Indians were not unique - the Chinese were the same way, it happened more often. They did share the same religion for a large period of time, but the fact that China founded two religions changes things up.

There were 4 religions founded in India. Unless I'm misinterpretting what you're saying, that should give India the leg up.