Why Civ always avoided Israelites?

[Proteus]

I have to agree with those people saying that a sovereign state of Israel (in real history, not biblical one) just didn't exist for an all too long time (and surely wasn't the powerful kingdom depicted in the bible)
Before the first century Israel over a lot of time during its existence was "just" a client state (or even province) to larger empires (like the greek, the romans, the persians or the babylonians) and after the first century (and till the mid 20th century) there was no jewish state of israel at all

 

[Tesch]

If a Israel mod were to be made (and I'm sure it will), a combination of ancient and modern traits isn't really ideal. Which is why modders usually pick one or the other.



Except, of course, for the obvious fact that no 'nation in diaspora' existed. This is just another Zionist myth, based on late 19th century nationalism..

Depends on how you define a nation. If you by nation mean a people with a common organization then you are right. There is obviously a defined jewish culture through the millennias with a comminism heritage and comminism values. The idea of return to Palestine in modern times is modern. The idea of a promised land is undoubtedly one that is there even in ancient judaism. A playable hebrew civ that is only based on a brief period in ancient times when there is supposed to have existed a free and mighty jewish state. This idea if any is myth by definition since it's only mentioned in the bible. The hebrew influence on religion and culture started after that time.

It would not make any sense to play a hebrew civ pusely based on Biblical myths. It would be a bit like playing Rome as Romulus as leader with a special ability to get boosts if you form city on seven hills and a special ability to drink milk from wolves.

Or playing England with King Arthur as leader and a special ability to sit at a round table and a special chivalieric knight that gets boosts whenever he finds religious relicts. Which he does not btw cause that feature doesnt work that way but the sad knight doesnt know that...

 

[IgorS]

Let's set things straight. The idea of a Jewish home in the Land of Israel is NOT a Zionist idea. It existed in the Ancient era, when the Jews returned to their land after the Babylonian Captivity, it existed in the Middle Ages and before Zionism and Nationalism were a thing. Yehuda Halevi famously wrote in the Middle Ages "My heart is in the east, and I in the uttermost west". Jews were longing to return to the Land of Israel all these centuries. The difference is, however, that this was a purely religious thing, and the Jews believed they should not return before the Messiah comes. They also believed their language - Hebrew - was to be reserved for ritual purposes only. Zionism is, as it was already mentioned here, a Jewish version of Nationalism. It basically says: the Jews deserve their own country, preferably in the Land of Israel (Herzl was seriously considering Uganda at a certain point), and that this country should be a home for the Jews as a nation, rather than a religious group. This is why Jews started immigrating to Palestine only after the advent of Zionism, when the old beliefs made way to modern ideas. There are still many ultra-orthodox Jews who do not recognize the State of Israel, and those of them who live in Israel refuse to pay taxes, serve in the army, et cetera...

As to the civ based on Diaspora thing, I think this idea is not good since Civilization is a game about nations who have their own land, not those who live in other lands. It would be like making a Roma civilization.

 

[Tesch]

Well you are absolutely right. But the gameplay could be fun. Wouldnt mind playing as Roma either. The point is that an israeli civ without any special ability that is not connected with antisemitic och zionistic myth would be rather pointless. Ancient Israel before the Babylonian captivity doesnt qualify and a modern Israel is too controversial. Should Jerusalem be capital? What special ability would be ok? Super boost in great people? Military boost och cheaper but strong modern units inside its borders? Would be boring gameplay wise.

 

[Windscion]

Short reply to OP: Israel is not in the game because the devs want to live.
It would displease many people for many different reasons. To the point the game could become controversial, leading to death threats and violence.

 

[Agent327]

Let's set things straight. The idea of a Jewish home in the Land of Israel is NOT a Zionist idea. It existed in the Ancient era, when the Jews returned to their land after the Babylonian Captivity, it existed in the Middle Ages and before Zionism and Nationalism were a thing. Yehuda Halevi famously wrote in the Middle Ages "My heart is in the east, and I in the uttermost west". Jews were longing to return to the Land of Israel all these centuries.

This is literally nonsense. Firstly, plenty of Babylonian captivity did not return to Palestine. Secondly, for most of the past two millennia there was no objection to Jews going to Palestine. And yet, they did not do so.Indeed, for most Jews the diaspora was a voluntary act: they emigrated. Yes, some Jews did travel 'back' to the country they'd never seen. And some were disappointed when they did. But they could have remigrated en masse. They did not, Not until after World War II.

 

[LanguishViking]

This is literally nonsense. Firstly, plenty of Babylonian captivity did not return to Palestine. Secondly, for most of the past two millennia there was no objection to Jews going to Palestine. And yet, they did not do so.Indeed, for most Jews the diaspora was a voluntary act: they emigrated. Yes, some Jews did travel 'back' to the country they'd never seen. And some were disappointed when they did. But they could have remigrated en masse. They did not, Not until after World War II.

They did, in 1952. When the americans entered Baghdad there were 17 or so jews left.

 

[Browd]

Moderator Action: OK, this thread has clearly run its course. If you want to continue discussion of ancient Israel, modern Israel and related issues, please do so in the World History forum or the Off-Topic forum. Thread closed.