Will Sub-Saharan Africa Rise out of Poverty?

[Formaldehyde]

The children of Europe weren't educated because they were busy working, same in the USA.

That is a gross oversimplification. It varied considerably from country to country. And in the US, it even varied radically from state to state until the early 20th Century.

Spoiler :

Much of the problem was due to totally inadequate public education in many of these countries.

The Beginning of the Public Education System

Until the 1840s the education system was highly localized and available only to wealthy people. Reformers who wanted all children to gain the benefits of education opposed this. Prominent among them were Horace Mann in Massachusetts and Henry Barnard in Connecticut. Mann started the publication of the Common School Journal, which took the educational issues to the public. The common-school reformers argued for the case on the belief that common schooling could create good citizens, unite society and prevent crime and poverty. As a result of their efforts, free public education at the elementary level was available for all American children by the end of the 19th century. Massachusetts passed the first compulsory school attendance laws in 1852, followed by New York in 1853. By 1918 all states had passed laws requiring children to attend at least elementary school. The Catholics were, however, opposed to common schooling and created their own private schools. Their decision was supported by the 1925 Supreme Court rule in Pierce v. Society of Sisters that states could not compel children to attend public schools, and that children could attend private schools instead.

High Schools

The first publicly supported secondary school in the United States was the Boston Latin School, founded in 1635. Harvard was the first University in existence at that time. The attendance in secondary schools was very little because the curriculum was specialized and hard. The demand for skilled workers in the middle of the eighteenth century led Benjamin Franklin to start a new kind of secondary school. Thus, the American Academy was established in Philadelphia in 1751. American high schools eventually replaced Latin grammar schools. The rise in American high school attendance was one of the most striking developments in U.S. education during the 20th century. From 1900 to 1996 the percentage of teenagers who graduated from high school increased from about 6 percent to about 85 percent. As the 20th century progressed, most states enacted legislation extending compulsory education laws to the age of 16. It is essential to look at the history of public education along with the events shaping the country in the early years of the 20th century. The Great Depression, World War II, the Cold War, wars with other countries, civil rights movement, student protests and the numerous political events within the country all had their effects on the education system too. In the 1920s and 30s, “progressive education” was the word of the day; the focus then shifted to intellectual discipline and curriculum development projects in the later decades.

 

[Ajidica]

I was mainly thinking about after 1980 when minority rule ended. I don't think it was inevitable for the country to end up like it is now.

It is not inevitable, but the situation in Rhodesia 1980 is not unlike Alabama right after the civil war. Suppose right after the Civil War Alabama received majority rule and elected a black governor. Can you imagine how tumultuous that situation would have been?

I didn't say it was ll terrible, but free markets are necessary for economic prosperity.

I think you mean regulated markets. Zaire had free markets and the country devolved into one big looting frenzy.
The comment was also more directed at abradley than you, I got my quotes mixed up. If we are creating a list of the factors that have inhibited economic development in Africa, African Socialism would be very far down on my list.

 

[chijohnaok]

It is not inevitable, but the situation in Rhodesia 1980 is not unlike Alabama right after the civil war. Suppose right after the Civil War Alabama received majority rule and elected a black governor. Can you imagine how tumultuous that situation would have been?

Not necessarily a valid comparison, or presumption.

According to the 1860 United States census (the most recent census to 1865), slaves made up a minority of the state's population.
http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_census.html

Now the source I referenced doesn't break down population into those elegible to vote at that time (I'm not sure US Census figures went into that depth at that time) but if the number of elegible voters were proportionate to the racial demographics of the population, and all the elegible voters voted on the basis of race only, then a black governor would likely not have been elected.

 

[Ajidica]

Way to completely miss the point.
Rhodesia had issued a unilateral declaration of independence and fought a brutal 15 year guerrilla war explicitly to preserve white rule in Africa. It is that level of racial tension and white control over the "commanding heights of the economy" I'm trying to illustrate was present in Zimbabwe-Rhodesia. The situation could not simply be fixed by "allowing free markets and property rights". I'm trying to think of a good U.S. example for celticempire and the best example I can think of would be a black General Sherman becoming governor of Alabama in 1870.

 

[chijohnaok]

Way to completely miss the point.
Rhodesia had issued a unilateral declaration of independence and fought a brutal 15 year guerrilla war explicitly to preserve white rule in Africa. It is that level of racial tension and white control over the "commanding heights of the economy" I'm trying to illustrate was present in Zimbabwe-Rhodesia. The situation could not simply be fixed by "allowing free markets and property rights". I'm trying to think of a good U.S. example for celticempire and the best example I can think of would be a black General Sherman becoming governor of Alabama in 1870.

I get the point.
You just chose a bad example.

There were southern states in the years after the end of the American Civil War where blacks were elected to both federal and state offices. Some/Many of the southern state legislatures in the years after the end of the ACW had majorities made up of black and white Republicans.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Right. It wasn't due to centuries of rampant European exploitation that stole their natural resources and essentially turned them into slaves in their own countries, while being overrun by their missionaries who turned them into bigoted murderers based on superstitious nonsense.

It is really due to liberals, socialists, and even communists.

You're starting to sound like the religious bigots you like pointing fingers at . "Overrun by missionaries" turning Africans into murders? Hyperbole much ? Care to put some numbers on those droves of missionaries pouring into Africa?

The point on exploitation, military suppression, and economic control negatively impacting these countries is legit though. Having nations go secular as opposed to wielding faith as a tool for dictator control + encouraging beliefs w/o evidence would be helpful, but the primary issues are continued economic suppression (in many cases foreign in source with limited local countermeasures) and instability.

It's been more of a mugging than simple theft really. If you're leading an African nation that can get shoved around by foreign markets and have very little outside of heavy exports to bring in wealth, how do you handle the situation? It's a rather thankless position for things to be so uphill.

 

[Synobun]

You're starting to sound like the religious bigots you like pointing fingers at . "Overrun by missionaries" turning Africans into murders? Hyperbole much ? Care to put some numbers on those droves of missionaries pouring into Africa?

Here's some light reading.

Forma and I don't agree on a lot, but the effects of religious proselytizing in Africa are rather well-known at this point. It is not the religion itself that is to blame but the missionaries and beliefs they instilled in the locals. Education and survival were controlled by the church and many people converted because they would be smugly abandoned to death if they didn't. Learn to read so you can recite the Bible, come to church so you can feed your family.

You're not wrong about the other factors but make no mistake about religious involvement. It had its place in keeping the people down.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'll check that out when I'm home, should be interesting. Maybe it was more widespread than I've been given to believe as a factor.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You're starting to sound like the religious bigots you like pointing fingers at . "Overrun by missionaries" turning Africans into murders? Hyperbole much ? Care to put some numbers on those droves of missionaries pouring into Africa?

It isn't "hyperbole" at all to state the obvious. What is a strawman though is to nonsensically pretend that I must have meant a vast number of missionaries descended upon them en masse without even asking about what I specifically meant first.

Do you, or do you not, think that untold thousands of missionaries converting Africans to Christianity for centuries had anything at all to do with them killings thousands of "witches" based on the Bible?

Do you, or do you not, think that stoning and burning supposed "witches" to death is murder or not?

Do you, or do you not, think that missionaries continue to try to persuade Africans to do the most despicable things imaginable, including passing laws that would make the practice of homosexuality punishable by death which is also based on Biblical passages?

One must be very careful when telling those with limited education that everything in the Bible is the supposed word of some god. All sorts of reprehensible acts might and do occur as a direct result, because they don't have the benefit of the same laws as we do to protect the innocent. This is ironically no different than what still occurs in some of the more backward Muslim countries for the very same reason.

This is also clearly still a major problem in sub-Saharan Africa, as it has been for centuries now. To apparently try to pretend it isn't is just silly.

The point on exploitation, military suppression, and economic control negatively impacting these countries is legit though.

Well, duh. At least thanks for that after this latest nonsensical personal attack, I guess. I am so happy that you seem to think at least some of my opinions aren't "hyperbole".

It's been more of a mugging than simple theft really. If you're leading an African nation that can get shoved around by foreign markets and have very little outside of heavy exports to bring in wealth, how do you handle the situation? It's a rather thankless position for things to be so uphill.

These countries have plenty of natural resources that can be sold to pay for internal development. Yet companies such as DeBeers continue to exploit their valuable natural resources while turning the local population into veritable slaves even today.

How do you make it stop? Perhaps the only effective way is for their government to eventually get around to banning it, even though the fix is obviously in. Other than that, it would likely seem to require a revolution of some sort.

But any attempt to nationalize any foreign industry that exploits natural resources and the local population could result in the US government and others fomenting a coup against even a democratic government, as they have done so many times before for exactly the same reason.

 

[chijohnaok]

How do you make it stop? Perhaps the only effective way is for their government to eventually get around to banning it, even though the fix is obviously in. Other than that, it would likely seem to require a revolution of some sort.

THIS revolution managed to do away with the exploitation of natural resources by corporations.

 

[Formaldehyde]

And the lesson the US government learned from it was to support South African apartheid under Reagan?

To conspire to overthrow the Afghan government from 1979-1989, the Turkish government in 1980, Nicaragua from 1981-1990, Iraq from 1992 to 1998, Venezuela in 2002, and Iran from 2005-present?

That the answer to those committing atrocities is to destabilize entire regions so they are far more capable of doing so, as ISIL is now doing in Syra and Iraq?

 

[Synobun]

THIS revolution managed to do away with the exploitation of natural resources by corporations.

There's really no reason to point to radicals who try to bring about a non-radical system as a reason why the non-radical idea won't work.

 

[Formaldehyde]

But it does highlight the danger of simply ignoring grave injustice. Desperate people are far more willing to accept desperate solutions.

 

[Agent327]

And the lesson the US government learned from it was to support South African apartheid under Reagan?

To conspire to overthrow the Afghan government from 1979-1989, the Turkish government in 1980, Nicaragua from 1981-1990, Iraq from 1992 to 1998, Venezuela in 2002, and Iran from 2005-present?

As per Turkey it is only mentioned the US were advised (1 day) in advance of the coup. The plans for Iran are not really aimed at regime change, but seem amateurish attempts to foster opposition.

Perhaps we should stick to the topic of Africa?

 

[Formaldehyde]

That isn't what it says at all in regard to Turkey. And claiming that the incessant attempts to overthrow the Iranian government aren't attempts at "regime change" is just silly.

 

[Agent327]

Actually, that's exactly what it says. Perhaps you should read it?

You're not very familiar with Iran, are you? What makes you think American supported opposition would stand any kind of chance in Iran?

I guess we're out of Africa...

 

[Hakim]

Ghana, Botswana and Somaliland (not recognised as independent country) are beacons of hope in Africa.

 

[Tahuti]

Somaliland (not recognised as independent country) are beacons of hope in Africa.

Isn't Somaliland dominated by radical Muslims*?

*not the Islamic Courts Union, which AFAIK controls the southern part of 'Somalia'

 

[jackelgull]

I'd place governmental corruption and corporate exploitation of Africa as the biggest road blocks to African prosperity.

 

[abradley]

Stop the Presses: Nobel Prize Committee Gives One to the Right Person

From the PJ Media article below.

Let's see, Obama won it for something he promised to do and hasn't.

But this guy may be on the right track:

October 12, 2015 6:15 pm
Nobel Prize winner Angus Deaton shares 3 big ideas
Ferdinando Giugliano, Economics Correspondent

-Video-
Continued
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b60c2e76-70f0-11e5-ad6d-f4ed76f0900a.html#axzz3oU0a9r4y

3 big ideas, Inequality, Foreign aid, and Poverty measurement.

The article gives a short easy explanation for each, some of what I understand (maybe) seems like commonsense.

Will people listen?

You'll have to Google the article title, FT has a block on direct link. Bummer.

And there's this:

Stop the Presses: Nobel Prize Committee Gives One to the Right Person
Unlike Obama and his Peace Prize, Angus Deaton's findings which won him the Economics Nobel actually have brought great peace to the world.
by David Steinberg
October 12, 2015 - 12:04 pm
Continued
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/10/1...rize-committee-gives-one-to-the-right-person/

So what is the answer, first of all the developing countries have to get their sh!t together, the developed countries can't do it with the developing countries fiddling away the aid. And that's a cultural problem.