Worst wonder?

What is the worst world wonder?

  • Angkor Wat

    Votes: 24 4.6%
  • Broadway

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Chichen Itza

    Votes: 181 34.8%
  • Cristo Redentor

    Votes: 18 3.5%
  • Hollywood

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Mausoleum of Maussollos

    Votes: 9 1.7%
  • Notre Dame

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Rock 'n' Roll

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Shwedagon Paya

    Votes: 25 4.8%
  • Stonehenge

    Votes: 6 1.2%
  • The Colossus

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Eiffel Tower

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • The Hagia Sophia

    Votes: 36 6.9%
  • The Hanging Gardens

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Parthenon

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • The Pentagon

    Votes: 5 1.0%
  • The Space Elevator

    Votes: 113 21.7%
  • The Spiral Minaret

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • The Statue of Zeus

    Votes: 11 2.1%
  • The Taj Mahal

    Votes: 7 1.3%
  • The Temple of Artemis

    Votes: 10 1.9%
  • The Three Gorges Dam

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • University of Sankore

    Votes: 4 0.8%
  • Versailles

    Votes: 12 2.3%
  • The Internet

    Votes: 44 8.5%

  • Total voters
    520
Cristo Redentor is coming too late and is ineffective for spiritual leaders, bottom of the list this too. Internet is somewhat better if you are behind in the technology development.

So it's mostly redundant with spiritual leaders. And? What about the forty-two others? 1-turn civics allow you to stay out of US and emancipation more often, stave off DoWs with civic reactions, tech broker with recalcitrant AIs, swap into pacifism and starve a city for the GP pop, leverage Vassalage+Theo units, give into civic/religion demands, and grab UN votes needed for a diplo vc, and rotate civic :hammers::espionage::science: multipliers to maximum effect. Similar to the Taj and Kremlin in that it puts your civ in overdrive for a limited period (limited, in this case, by the end).

Even though it's modern, the effects are strong. It's really highly regarded by good players who micro their civ.
 
So it's mostly redundant with spiritual leaders. And? What about the forty-two others? 1-turn civics allow you to stay out of US and emancipation more often, stave off DoWs with civic reactions, tech broker with recalcitrant AIs, swap into pacifism and starve a city for the GP pop, leverage Vassalage+Theo units, give into civic/religion demands, and grab UN votes needed for a diplo vc, and rotate civic :hammers::espionage::science: multipliers to maximum effect. Similar to the Taj and Kremlin in that it puts your civ in overdrive for a limited period (limited, in this case, by the end).

Even though it's modern, the effects are strong. It's really highly regarded by good players who micro their civ.


It has the problem all late game wonders do: The game is pretty much won or lost long before you can build it. Use the hammers to build more tanks and win earlier.
 
It has the problem all late game wonders do: The game is pretty much won or lost long before you can build it. Use the hammers to build more tanks and win earlier.
Tanks come around the same time.... and CR is quite likely to you win faster than just spamming tanks, as it allows you to break up global diplomacy and make full use of civics.
 
Power and the space elevator aside, can anyone show me a game where AW was a decisive wonder? Challenge: Not involving Arabia or Egypt?

Show? No, but I can describe. I was playing a deity game as Shaka, and captured the Holy City for the only religion on our continent. Two settled prophets, and no shrine. :mad: Those priest slots from AW let me get a prophet ASAP, to get the shrine up, which led to oodles of cash, which funded my "expansion", and onward and upward to victory (religious or dom-diplo; I don't remember which). That one game changed my opinion on AW (I don't think I've built it since, but it definitely has it's uses).
 
It has the problem all late game wonders do: The game is pretty much won or lost long before you can build it. Use the hammers to build more tanks and win earlier.

Usually this is the case that the game is won or lost. However, Cristo is still good, especially for non-spiritual. If 25 cities are building tanks, one can sometimes build a wonder.

Hollywood or Rock & Roll can get you a lot of gold in trades. I've seen 30-40 GPT. Eiffel tower guarantees culture in cities you capture.

Internet (I know it's a project) can be a life saver at high difficulties. Look up the old Neal's King of the World series as Mali. He would've lost without the Internet. OCC's at, say, Immortal can also benefit.

UN can get you an earlier victory after you start conquering.
 
Show? No, but I can describe. I was playing a deity game as Shaka, and captured the Holy City for the only religion on our continent. Two settled prophets, and no shrine. :mad: Those priest slots from AW let me get a prophet ASAP, to get the shrine up, which led to oodles of cash, which funded my "expansion", and onward and upward to victory (religious or dom-diplo; I don't remember which). That one game changed my opinion on AW (I don't think I've built it since, but it definitely has it's uses).
Next time go caste and starve out a couple of Great Merchants. It's a much faster way to "fund expansion". Shrines are very overrated on normal maps.

Even if a shrine brings in as much as 20 gpt it will take almost 100 turns to catch up with a trade mission.
 
Next time go caste and starve out a couple of Great Merchants. It's a much faster way to "fund expansion". Shrines are very overrated on normal maps.

Even if a shrine brings in as much as 20 gpt it will take almost 100 turns to catch up with a trade mission.

I do both, in addition to building wealth. I also usually get A LOT more than 20 gpt from a shrine, especially in that game where the shrine city ended up being a monster Wall Street city. I could probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of trade missions I've done; I pretty much just use GMs for GAs.

It still stands that those AW priest slots can come in quite handy if you want/need a prophet, so not by any means the worst wonder, although very situational.
 
Rusten said:
Even if a shrine brings in as much as 20 gpt it will take almost 100 turns to catch up with a trade mission.
Not saying you are wrong in that merchants are better, but 20 gpt is not on the high side for a captured holy city of a religion focusing AI, or a solitary religion like the example. And that is before multipliers.
 
I had never built the internet in all the years that I have played CIV. It always either did not become available before the game ended or was not worth building because I already had a huge tech lead over all the AIs. The game that I just finished fell into the latter category. I had chosen to go for a Space victory, my spaceship was on its way, only one AI even had Apollo Project, I was the dominant military, cultural, and diplomatic empire. So, while twiddling my thumbs while waiting for my spaceship to arrive, I built the Internet, due to this thread, just for the heck of it. It did not do anything for me of course but it was the first time I had seen the movie for it, which was kind of nice.
 
Internet gets better as you go up difficulty levels.
 
Next time go caste and starve out a couple of Great Merchants. It's a much faster way to "fund expansion". Shrines are very overrated on normal maps.

Even if a shrine brings in as much as 20 gpt it will take almost 100 turns to catch up with a trade mission.

IMO shrines were included to be powerful on...less normal maps. Capturing one worth 80+ gold on a huge map can be pretty delicious and those guys are definitely walking around with huge targets on their backs :lol:.

But I still think you'd be hard-pressed to show that AW is actually worse than the space elevator in the overwhelming majority of games...both standard and unusual.
 
But I still think you'd be hard-pressed to show that AW is actually worse than the space elevator in the overwhelming majority of games...both standard and unusual.

Unusual and generous: steal robotics from leftover EPs (yes, let's assume it's practically free). Assume no aluminum. Hell, assume no copper either. Assume power, since you like it. :D Build elevator for 571 raw hammers (iron works, forge, factory, coal plant, and industrious). (maybe the fusion engineer helps here, making it more competitive).

Let's say we need another 10,000 hammers to finish the ship. With power and labs, we need 4000 raw hammers. With the space elevator added, the need is 3,333 raw hammers.

Space elevator = win, worth almost 100 raw hammers, maybe even 300 if the fusion engineer helps! :lol:

Now, if we have no coal OR aluminum, it takes us from needing 5000 raw hammers to 4000, at a cost of raw 800 hammers (iron works at 50%, forge, factory, industrious), doubling its effectiveness to a tremendous 200 raw hammers......

Ok, it's almost always absolutely godawful. With an espionage economy and a saved up great engineer, I think it might save 1 turn from the launch, possibly 2 turns on a blue moon friday the 13th. That might, of course, be enough...

I still say Angkor Wat is the worst, as it doesn't exactly scream out as a fluke game clencher even in the most freakish maps. I am, however, very biased against huge maps, due to a slow computer and ADD; I hope you understand. ;)
 
Let's say we need another 10,000 hammers to finish the ship. With power and labs, we need 4000 raw hammers. With the space elevator added, the need is 3,333 raw hammers.

Space elevator = win, worth almost 100 raw hammers, maybe even 300 if the fusion engineer helps! :lol:
Does it cost 10000 Hammers for two Engine parts? It has been my experience that building the Engine part (in Vanilla or Warlords) or both Engine parts (in BtS) will be your gating-factor on your launch date (equal to your Victory date in Vanilla and Walords). However, this situation means that we only need to worry about the cost of the parts which act as our gating-factor for our Victory date, not every single Spaceship part.

I just checked my latest game and each Engine part costs 1600 Hammers each (Emperor level, Normal Speed).

Now, feasibly, the Docking Bay could be the last part that you build, if you delay researching Genetics, which costs 1200 Hammers, but I find that Health is so important in BtS late-game that I will generally not research Genetics as the last Spaceship tech and therefore I tend to build the Docking Bay earlier at a time when it does not act as a gating-factor for our Victory date.

Similarly, the Life Support component part, from Ecology, could be the last part that gets researched, but with its cheap cost (1000 Hammers) and bonus from Copper, it's usually a part that you can build to completion in an auxilliary Hammer City while another City is still completing an Engine part.

So, at least for me, the Engine parts are the gating-factor for the date of when I'll be ready to launch my Spaceship. Preferably, I will have two Cities that are building the two Engine parts, meaning that the ONLY Build Item which matters for a Hammers savings will be the last of the two Engine parts to complete.

Outside of a One City Challenge game, it is POSSIBLE that you may get the most efficiency out of building BOTH Engine parts in the same City, so we can say that for a non-One-City-Challenge game, building BOTH Engine parts will be the extent of our gating-factor. Your calculations should therefore use the cost of the two Engine parts and not the entire Spaceship to see whether having the Space Elevator can speed up the completion date of your Spaceship.


Now, if you could find a way to fully leverage an empire's saved Hammers from the Space Elevator, then you'd have more of an argument for using a figure like 10000 Hammers. However, the reality is that even when building Wealth or Research, the Hammer gain will be relatively neglible enough not to give you any additional savings on your research, or at very most, 1 turn saved. So, you're talking about getting the Computers tech and the Robotics tech in 1 or 0 turns... but you're also talking about using Espionage. If you're going to get sufficient Espionage Points, it probably means that you spent Commerce on Espionage. In that case, you didn't spend the saved Hammers on speeding up your research (because the additional Gold or Research wasn't used alongside 100% of your Commerce going to Science but was only used alongside a portion of your Commerce going to Science, with some of it also going to Espionage), meaning that you probably lost out (or at best made no gain) in terms of research using the "Hammers saved" being spent on Wealth or Research.

But okay, you want to imagine that we magically had sufficient Espionage to steal Robotics and for some reason also had Computers (say, we got it in trade)--perhaps you accidentally spawned a Great Spy and used it for some additional Espionage Points--but then you have to weigh the opportunity cost of not getting a better late-game Great Person or not using this Great Spy as part of a final Golden Age--so, sure, we'll say that you didn't have perfect management of your Great People and had an "extra" Great Spy that couldn't be used in a Golden Age.

Even if you make all of these assumptions, though, the potential savings from the Space Elevator need to be weighed against the final Spaceship part (or parts, if you are building a couple of the final parts one-after-another in the same City), not against the cost of all Spaceship parts.


Now, if we have no coal OR aluminum
I am even more lost when you bring up this point. The Space Elevator gets a bonus from Aluminum, while the Engine Parts and the potentially-late-built Docking Bay do NOT gain any Resource bonus.

So, if you talk about missing out on said Resources, particularly Aluminum, then building the Space Elevator becomes even worse of an idea than it already is.


If you do not have Coal at all, then chances are that you won't be spending any Hammers on Coal Plants. Since you need to research both Fission and Plastics in order to complete the Spaceship, it is not unreasonable to assume that, at least in your key Spaceship-part-building Cities you will build Hydro Plants, Nuclear Plants, or will have access to Power via the Three Gorges Dam.

So, a lack of Coal will only potentially hurt your Ironworks City, in that you won't get Coal's +50% bonus to production. In fact, since you don't have access to Coal, you might as well build the National Park (if it is yet unbuilt) in your Ironworks City. Normally, doing so is a BAD idea, since the National Park disables Coal in a City and thus NEGATES the effect of Coal's bonus to Ironworks... but if you don't have Coal anyway, you might as well get some extra Health in the Ironworks City for a potential couple of extra population points--say, for another Engineer Specialist or two. But that idea is a side-issue... the real truth is that you'll have a Forge, a Factory, Power, a Lab, and Iron in that City, already giving you a +200% bonus to production, so the loss of the Coal's further +50% (for a total of +250%) isn't really that big--which is also the same argument for the Space Elevator's additional +50% Hammer bonus not having much of an impact.


Meanwhile, even if you were to magically get the Computers tech (you have the choice between Refrigeration and Computers but Computers costs considerably more Flasks than Refrigeration so I tend to skip Computers), the Robotics tech, and 2 Great Engineers at no additional cost to your empire (the 2 Great Engineers are to rush-build the Space Elevator, so that missing out on Aluminum wouldn't matter in terms of building the Space Elevator), then guess what? The final parts that matter (the 2 Engines and the Docking Bay) do not even have associated Resource bonuses!!! Therefore, the presense or absense of a Spaceship-part-Resource like Aluminum is not going to speed up or slow down the building of your final, Victory-date-gating Spaceship parts. The absense of Coal will only marginally affect the Ironworks City, with the ultimate best case for the Space Elevator being that the Ironworks City has:
Forge = + 25%
Factory = + 25%
Power (you WILL have Power here or else you're playing to lose) = + 50%
Laboratory = + 50%
Iron (if you don't have Coal OR Iron then you wouldn't have built Ironworks in the first place, so since we are assuming that you don't have Coal, we HAVE to assume that you have Iron in your Ironworks City) = + 50%

That gives us a total of + 200% bonus Hammers, which equals 300% of our base Hammers.

Gaining the Space Elevator would give us an extra + 50% bonus, for a total of + 250% bonus Hammers, which equals 350% of our base Hammers.

I admit that I suck with Percentage-based math, but I think that how it works is that you would devide 350 by 300 (please correct me if I am wrong).

350 / 300 = 1.167

So, you're talking about a 16.7% savings.

But, what we are REALLY talking about is the RELATIVE savings of having or not having Coal.

With Coal, we'd actually have + 250% bonus Hammers in our Ironworks City without the Space Elevator, for 350% of our base Hammers.

With Coal plus the Space Elevator, we'd have + 300% bonus Hammers in our Ironworks City, for + 400% of our base Hammers.

Again, assuming that I am doing the math correclty, we're looking at:

400 / 350 = 1.143

So, in that case, the Space Elevator gives a 14.3% savings.

If we take the without-Coal savings and subtract the with-Coal savings, we get:
16.7% - 14.3% = 2.4%


So, that's the additional contribution of the Space Elevator in a Resourceless situation: 2.4% savings on the cost of the last Spaceship part (or on the last couple of Spaceship parts if you build said parts in the same City). Thus, the question that you need to ask yourself is: "Will those additional Hammers be sufficient to speed up your Victory date by 1 turn?"

If not, then there really isn't a case for building the Spaceship Elevator simply because you are lacking Spaceship-part-related Resources like Aluminum and Copper or a Power-and-Ironworks-related Resource like Coal.


Ok, it's almost always absolutely godawful.
Without the qualifier "almost" in there, or with "almost" representing a fractionally small percentage, then I think that you've hit the head of the nail (instead of hitting your thumb) with your Hammers.



As for Shrines... while you may poo-poo them, chances are that you will do your best to build Wallstreet and found your Corporations in a Shrined City. So, you can generally expect to have one of them in a late-game type of Victory condition, such as a Space race, thus whether or not they are amazing doesn't really matter--you'll tend to have one anyway.

But, if you want to do the math, the problem is that a Shrine, like a Great Merchant Mission, is very situational. A widely-spread Religion offers more value, but the same can be said if you manage to have a peaceful, far-flung AI that managed to build a large-sized City with The Temple of Artemis and a Harbour in it... the lack of either can tip the scales in favour of one versus the other. The good part about the Trade Route Missions is that, assuming that you aren't at war with everyone, you can fund many of them, but Shrining a second Religion is almost certainly not going to be as good as Shrining the first Religion, assuming that you were able to build a Shrine for the Religion (for which you own the Holy City) that was the most wide-spread of all of your Holy Cities the first time that you Shrined a Religion.
 
Shrines take too long to pay back their investments, especially missionary spread.

However, very often they can be acquired with less investment; military units that were being used to attain additional cities anyway (very low opportunity cost on the capture of the shrine if you've already committed to conquering either way).

Building them, on the other hand, competes with scientist GPP and it's hard to do that.
 
Iunno, sometimes you luck out with trade connections, and your stonehenge-GProphet-theology bulb makes nearly the entire world Christian. Bam, 40gpt as soon as your second GProphet appears.

But yeah, I never aim to build my own shrines these days. Then again, I think Shrines are best in the early game, when dominating your continent with a religion can cover the expenses of half your cities. Later on, it's too weak a gpt, I can often match it with resource trades and that's without the opportunity cost of missionaries instead of settlers, religion techs instead of worker techs, etc.
 
More realistic (though less common) would be to bulb philosophy with a scientist and wind up with the only religion on the continent (taoism). If you're going to roll with a 30+ gpt shrine w/o any missionary investment it's worth it IMO.
 
Well, the last time that happened to me, it was on Terra. Stonehenge/Oracle-Theology has a good chance of having enough GProphet points to build a shrine, unlike Taoism where your GP farm is geared towards scientists (and you probably lack the hammers to build a temple or two).
 
Building a shrine is a good idea if you have a prophet (sometimes you will) and a holy city that can output more right away, or have enough potential for spread (auto, or zealous neighbour) to be better than the value of settling him.

Actively foregoing a great merchant/scientist for a prophet intended for a shrine is probably done way too often compared to how often it is a good play.

But to get back to the AW, which triggered the whole discussion. It can happen, and has happened to me a few times that I have captured a holy city of great influence, that just happens to have no shrine. The AW is a great option to quickly push out a prophet for a shrine then. And if the game is not going to end in the near future, then with multipliers, particularly if you are planning a corporate HQ/Wall Street city there, it will easily be one of the most profitable great people you generated that game.
 
Hmm... one wonder that the game was lacking, would have been one which unlocks a free GG. It would have been interesting to have this one available early on in the game, which could still give peace-builders a chance to gain a GG without an early war. It would be interesting to see how much this one would be contested for...
 
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