Worst wonder?

[Higher Game]

Building a shrine is a good idea if you have a prophet (sometimes you will) and a holy city that can output more right away, or have enough potential for spread (auto, or zealous neighbour) to be better than the value of settling him.

Actively foregoing a great merchant/scientist for a prophet intended for a shrine is probably done way too often compared to how often it is a good play.

But to get back to the AW, which triggered the whole discussion. It can happen, and has happened to me a few times that I have captured a holy city of great influence, that just happens to have no shrine. The AW is a great option to quickly push out a prophet for a shrine then. And if the game is not going to end in the near future, then with multipliers, particularly if you are planning a corporate HQ/Wall Street city there, it will easily be one of the most profitable great people you generated that game.

A high commerce, low hammer city needs a prophet specialist far more than a shrine. Those hammers lead to infrastructure, enough that the shrine had better put out 15+ gold a turn to be competitive. I see that mostly with buddhism and hinduism, but those are religions you let the AI take, and warring over them is very situational; Arabia is protective and the Byzantines are usually just too big and scary to take on. Spain, however, is usually a nice target.

Hmm... one wonder that the game was lacking, would have been one which unlocks a free GG. It would have been interesting to have this one available early on in the game, which could still give peace-builders a chance to gain a GG without an early war. It would be interesting to see how much this one would be contested for...

Not much, unless it's really cheap. A GG is worth thousands of hammers later, but so is ignoring early wonders and rushing your neighbor. I do wish the HE gave GG points.

 

[Ghpstage]

Not much, unless it's really cheap. A GG is worth thousands of hammers later, but so is ignoring early wonders and rushing your neighbor. I do wish the HE gave GG points.

A pre-war GG could significantly increase your ability to attack, or even help in other ways. Early wars to get a GG/open HE aren't always the best option.

As numbers of troops are relatively low early on the value of attaching that general would likely be a lot higher than in typical games, instantly promoting 10 existing Catapults/Swords to CR 2 as soon as the wonder comes in could make a huge difference, having a 5 move Galley early could prove invaluable in expanding and making naval war more feasible, little tricks involving Agg/Pro/Char/Vas/Theo would likely appear, even combat based Generals may make sense as they won't have to slog through as many enemies before doing something decisive.

Would be something I would definately be willing to try out quite a bit.

 

[Calouste]

Building the Eiffel Tower is rarely important. In culture games, you only care about your three legendary cities, and three broadcast towers are cheaper than the Eiffel Tower, even with the iron doubler, and the extra culture from the wonder is only of marginal value that late.

In culture games the Eiffel Tower is pretty important:
1) It comes a tech earlier than broadcast towers
2) You can rush (most of) the Eiffel Tower with one GE. You can't rush 3 broadcast towers with one GE.
3) Because it comes a tech earlier than broadcast towers and because you only need to build it in your highest production city, you will have it up before you can have broadcast towers up in all 3 cities, and in the mean time you don't have to switch citizens from Artist slots to production in at least 2 of your legendary cities.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

You should have won by culture long before Radio

 

[bestbrian]

The Eiffel Tower is always a "nice to have". I like the cultural pressure it puts on my borders, but, as 'Shifter said, a cultural game should've been won already, and it's not a priority. I often build it, I happen to like it, but I never need it.

 

[codehappy]

In culture games the Eiffel Tower is pretty important:
1) It comes a tech earlier than broadcast towers
2) You can rush (most of) the Eiffel Tower with one GE. You can't rush 3 broadcast towers with one GE.
3) Because it comes a tech earlier than broadcast towers and because you only need to build it in your highest production city, you will have it up before you can have broadcast towers up in all 3 cities, and in the mean time you don't have to switch citizens from Artist slots to production in at least 2 of your legendary cities.

I would be much more likely to build Eiffel for happiness, not for culture, and even that's an unlikely scenario. In most culture games I'd have turned my research off well before Radio anyway.

If you are in a culture game that gets to Radio for some reason, you want Mass Media anyway (for Hollywood, you'd rather spend your GAs on bombs than Civ Jewelers at this point). And if you have a Great Engineer to burn at this point, surely you would want to spend it on Rock 'n' Roll, Broadway, Hollywood or even CreateCon before Eiffel. If somebody beats you to the Hits wonders you lose those 50% culture bonuses entirely, after all, but you can always build broadcast towers.

But really, if you're in a culture game where building Eiffel to get auto-broadcast towers without researching Mass Media to save a few turns looks like an attractive option, it's way, way too close -- and cutting the research off and going 100% culture earlier would have won the game. I still don't see how pursuing the Eiffel Tower is a sensible culture strategy.

Mind, the Eiffel Tower is not useless, just not particularly useful. It's a happiness wonder, not a culture wonder, and it's a weak happiness wonder since its effect is so easily replicated. If the game isn't over at the point it becomes available, there are much, much better things to build with the hammers. Like bombers, maybe -- Radio unlocks those world wonders, too.

 

[s.bernbaum]

You should have won by culture long before Radio

Not all of us play to win as early as possible. I play to have the game last as long as possible but to win in the end. I also like to win games with a nice variety of victory conditions. So, my culture wins will often come late.

 

[Iranon]

You should have won by culture long before Radio

That's like saying 'you should have won by diplomacy long before the UN becomes available'. A cultural victory strategy that cancels research after Liberalism is very different from one that relies on corporations and modern entertainment wonders... from my experience the latter is often more expedient than any alternatives at the time.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That's like saying 'you should have won by diplomacy long before the UN becomes available'. A cultural victory strategy that cancels research after Liberalism is very different from one that relies on corporations and modern entertainment wonders... from my experience the latter is often more expedient than any alternatives at the time.

More like, your defenses are a bit better w/o DPacts and the date at which you must commit to culture to reach it is later.

Mass media type wonders will never cross the finish line before a carefully planned slider-stop at lib when things go well for the latter; but the late culture wins are a bit more reliable. Defending with the likes of machine guns and probably even infantry (via trades) over a smaller stretch of turns (from higher total /turn) is a lot easier than trying to defend for a larger #turns with longbows! Sometimes, you can eliminate war chances and pull off the uberfast win, while others the late game stuff can be valuable to put up a W a bit faster than (or comparable to) space.

The Eiffel tower is still kind of bad though. When gunning for a culture win you really only need the multipliers in your 3 legendary cities; you'd then want to put those hammers into Eiffel in another city. However, is that better than just building wealth so you can hold the slider up for the 3 legendary cities so that you can pay relatively less investment into the multipliers? Doesn't seem so, especially when Eiffel has to compete with musicals/singles/movies.

 

[lasombra1984]

A high commerce, low hammer city needs a prophet specialist far more than a shrine. Those hammers lead to infrastructure, enough that the shrine had better put out 15+ gold a turn to be competitive. I see that mostly with buddhism and hinduism, but those are religions you let the AI take, and warring over them is very situational; Arabia is protective and the Byzantines are usually just too big and scary to take on. Spain, however, is usually a nice target.



Not much, unless it's really cheap. A GG is worth thousands of hammers later, but so is ignoring early wonders and rushing your neighbor. I do wish the HE gave GG points.

Arabia maybe though target, Byzantines & HRE "big & scary", but you forgot military weak & non-REXers Maya, Inca, Korea (and other Mysticism civs)

 

[Riflin'Joe]

They're all rubbish. Wonders Shmonders!

 

[Higher Game]

Arabia maybe though target, Byzantines & HRE "big & scary", but you forgot military weak & non-REXers Maya, Inca, Korea (and other Mysticism civs)

Korea is protective and the Maya aren't that weak; Incas are weak indeed, probably due to going for wonders.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Korea is protective and the Maya aren't that weak; Incas are weak indeed, probably due to going for wonders.

Maya is popular and not weak in MP.

Maya in SP as an AI *is* weak. You're not going to successfully argue otherwise; the guy has tendencies that cause him to expand less frequently/well than other AI, and he is in a big tie for 2nd LOWEST unitprob (gandhi is unique at lowest). He even does the "missionary" strategy a lot! "Not that weak"? That's like saying that monty "doesn't build that many units".......

While PRO and thus a pain to rush, korea also has a sissyfoot unitprob. He's no gilgamesh.

 

[lasombra1984]

Korea is protective and the Maya aren't that weak; Incas are weak indeed, probably due to going for wonders.

Korea is protective - but WK doesn't build units.
Pacal & HC act similar in my experience
As for Spain - Isabella is though if survives to AD

 

[Higher Game]

Maya is popular and not weak in MP.

Maya in SP as an AI *is* weak. You're not going to successfully argue otherwise; the guy has tendencies that cause him to expand less frequently/well than other AI, and he is in a big tie for 2nd LOWEST unitprob (gandhi is unique at lowest). He even does the "missionary" strategy a lot! "Not that weak"? That's like saying that monty "doesn't build that many units".......

While PRO and thus a pain to rush, korea also has a sissyfoot unitprob. He's no gilgamesh.

Early wars are a gamble. By the time you can afford a serious war, he has longbows. He'll have castles and knights when you have macemen, and rifles when you have cuirassiers. His tech advantage is simply too great to call him weak.

He is, however, a bit soft when it comes to start and stop wars where you do some damage and quickly sue for peace before he makes too many advanced units. I like to whittle him down over the game if the diplomatic situation allows it.

Korea for whatever reason seems to love getting grenadiers at ridiculously early dates. I don't think I've seen this from any other AI.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Early wars are a gamble. By the time you can afford a serious war, he has longbows. He'll have castles and knights when you have macemen, and rifles when you have cuirassiers. His tech advantage is simply too great to call him weak.

That only happens if he actually gets a GREAT start, or you are teching very poorly.

Below deity he's almost NEVER getting longbows pre-1000 BC, when a "serious" axe rush should be happening. Chariot rush vs him obviously isn't advisable but I've done it on immortal with success X_X. Again, below deity you're not going to see him pulling 1000AD rifles...

Korea is an underexpanding joke and isn't even worth considering.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

To be sure. Any wonder that I dont build myself is pretty bad.

 

[lasombra1984]

Early wars are a gamble. By the time you can afford a serious war, he has longbows. He'll have castles and knights when you have macemen, and rifles when you have cuirassiers. His tech advantage is simply too great to call him weak.

He is, however, a bit soft when it comes to start and stop wars where you do some damage and quickly sue for peace before he makes too many advanced units. I like to whittle him down over the game if the diplomatic situation allows it.

Korea for whatever reason seems to love getting grenadiers at ridiculously early dates. I don't think I've seen this from any other AI.

3 longbows & castle per city vs deathstack isn't problem. You simply should gather it smart

 

[lasombra1984]

To be sure. Any wonder that I dont build myself is pretty bad.

Any wonder that I don't build myself is very good when I conquer it)

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Oracle and Taj suck a bit for that